What say you NoThink? From German Consul report - July 1915

[thinktwice]

I wonder why thinktwice hasn't replied to this thread.

Because i was sleeping. LOL.
TomServo you are making me laugh please don't stop and go on writing...

...you are entirely exposed and wasted!

Not really. Only you trying to stand against my writings others just trying to insult. And your twisted thoughts cannot cover your crimes.

Go down to post #65 - its the exact same post that NothinkTrusk just made here - copied form another Turk racist post on a Jewish forum.

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php?p=118312#post118312

I am finding that this claim of 2.5 million Turks suposedly killed by Armenians and admitted by such is entirely a fabrication. People can say anything - with whatever motives - and sometimes people have a grudge - even against their own people - thus the Carlson character and this supposed Agop Zahoryan as well - if such and such book ever existed at all...

and surprise surprise - our old friend Teturken is there as well - no doubt he is noturkthink one and the same I imagine...

omg winoman you catch me LOL. of course i'll get writings from other people and of course (like everytime) you'll call us racist.

Talking elderly people in "yellow bride" are fabrication? Oh let me guess you didn't even watch that documentary movie.

Did you investigate book? NO...

This quote is a forgery, first of all there is a grammar mistake in the title of this supposed work that won't passes as incognito for editors “stationed” in London. Skeptical but still open minded enough, over a year ago, I placed an inter loaning order to find the book, the book is nowhere to be found around all the libraries around the world affiliated with the inter loaning program. Surprising enough, even those libraries in Turkey that are included in the system have no copy of the work in question.

The books existance has been fabricated in the newsgroups in 90s, not a single copy seems to exist... even from the Londons largest library.

oh yea forgery like others.
When you want to find you can find books...

Isn't it quite amusing to find out here again the famous Lalayan quote? More amusing is the fact that many different flavors of this quote were all around the web, like “Muslim” being changed by the words Turks and Azeris. What about the quote in question, not from Richard Hovannesians work,(not to say that some other sites claims that it comes from the work “Patriotism Perverted”) but rather the original Revolutsionniy Vostok ? An inter loaning order gave no results. Not finding the original, I restrained myself using the second source referring to it.

And you think writings on web are truths instead of historical archives.

Has this quote anything to do with the Ottoman Empire and 1915-1917, where most of the genocide happened? No!!! Actually, this quotes come from a said Lalayan, whose identity seems not existing in any other records, whom was allegedly a close friend of Shaumian.

It's the part of our histroy like your so-called genocide i'm reminding you crimes...

Ataturks companion of arm Karabekir, considered in Turkey as a national hero, with General Halil, whom wrote in his own memoirs having butchered 300,000 Armenians with his men, were sent there butchering the Armenians and comploted with the Bolchevics to get Nachikevan and Karabagh, and other Armenian regions to be separated from Armenia, to be sure that never ever an Armenia will have the possibility to exist. Karabekir himself wrote in his memoirs when planning to do this: “Armenia, destroy for eternity.”

ATATURK killed whoever against our liberty and people who taking side with our enemies. It's the truth...

Quote:
"I am informed, on good authority, that Russia is already commencing her usual intrigues among the Armenians of Asiatic Turkey. Russian agents are being sent into the provinces inhabited by them with the object of stirring up discontent against the rule and authority of the Porte. A Russian party is being formed in the capital amongst the Armenians, which already includes some leading and influential members of that community."

Sir Henry Layard, British Ambassador, in a July 14, 1878 message to British Foreign Secretary Lord Salisbury (British Foreign Office 424/72, pages 160-161, No 211)

This material has no relevancy, 1878 has nothing to do with what happened in 1915.

Yea i know your usual answer. It's showing your revolting people's history.

In fact, the first 7-8 pages are not in the Manifesto

I wonder why they aren't in manifesto...

Darounian is far from being a credible source, since the material in question was published during an era of propaganda war between Bolshevic Armenians(like Darounian) and Dashnakist Armenians.

Oh yea another deny like others...

It's funny because the only thing Turks can use is Holdwater's website. And we already know that Holdwater is a hypocrite. That website serves more as a hate site than anything else.

LOL. your rejection is limitless...

Quote:
" All Turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the Armenian nation"

[I]Hamparsum Boyaciyan, nicknamed "Murad," a former Ottoman parliamentarian who led Armenian guerilla forces, ravaging Turkish villages behind the lines, 1914. Cited from M. Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun," p. 85.

This quote does not exist, neither in the first volume, neither in the second, of the aforementioned work. No only does it not exist on page 85 of those two volumes, but it doesn't exist anywhere in those two books. Another example of falsification.

Oh Really... Why don't you tell what's writing on p. 85. then...

Interviews such is this of said witnesses popping up after 60 years, can hardly be presented as evidences.

LOOOOOOOOL after 90 years of your so-called genocide witnesses can hardly be presented as evidences then...

And finally, whom is to tell that this man is really an Armenian that has converted to Islam?

omg you are totaly racist...


Enough diaspora lies... You are denying any piece of truth on earth against so-called genocide. It's not only so-called genocide it's your hatred for Turks. I'm totaly ignoring you racist people...

And i'm so sad for you diaspora people. I guess your pschology like this... Waking up with so-called genocide nightmare, talking so-called genocide in the breakfast to tell each other you must provide your hatred, trying to find another racist writing against Turks in work, while going back home seeing hallucination of Turks chasing you, and again nightmares.

How pathetic...

Having nice days with so-called doesn't even exist genocide...

[Crimson Glow]

I (as well as a few others) have done nothing but address your issues directly, not retort with insults. So I'd appreciate it if you'd look at the sum individually, and not the whole, as opposed to punishing the whole for the sum, as basically the Young Turks had done (according to your line of defense).

You keep referring to us being "racist" or full of "hatred for Turks". That may be so in the case of much of the Diaspora, but have you ever wondered where that hatred stems from? Did it just magically appear in the Diaspora for no apparent reason? Has it never occurred to you that something had to start it, and keep it going? It's called the thousands upon thousands of witnesses passing on the stories to their children, and grandchildren. Stories very much like the ones on the 20voices website. When Winoman said it seems a little odd that the witnesses in your one quote started appearing 60 years after the fact, you replied with "after 90 years of your so-called genocide witnesses can hardly be presented as evidences then...". That's great, thinktwice. But there's just one problem with your comparison. Our witnesses of the genocide have been there since day one, before, during and long after it happened. They've written books, given speeches, and relayed their stories to others a hundred times over, each. They didn't just "pop up" more recently in lew of counter attacking the "so called genocide".

On to more important, less trivial issues….

If we're going to talk about treachery, and who turned on who, let's take a closer look at history. Your case is based on going back to a time period prior to 1915, to show that we were beginning to "conspire with the enemy" long before the start of the genocide. That's fine. You have every right to point that out, and several cases you've presented (from what I've researched), are fairly accurate. BUT, you are taking it way out of context as far as timeline of events prior to 1915. For starters, the propositioning for Armenian rebellion from outside forces at that point in time was ineffectual. More importantly, if you truly believe the minorities within the Ottoman Empire were "living in peace, side by side" with each other, I suggest you dig deeper into your "archives" (and not just resort to quotes from websites like this) for your info. While there were several minorities within the Empire, the Armenians made up the largest number. You've left out (or perhaps don't know or deny) the fact that there were slaughters of minorities (again, mostly Armenians) WELL before 1915. The Armenians and Greeks were also taxed well beyond what the average Turkish citizen had to pay, Armenians receiving the worst end of the stick due to their prosperity within the Ottoman Empire. If Armenians had started conspiring with the enemy, it is because they were getting their ASSES kicked under the oppression of Ottoman rule, not just for the hell of it, which, if your side of the story is true, is what you're stating/implying (that we had no reason to rebel). Why do you think we were actually HAPPY when the Young Turks first came into power? Did you forget (or did not know/deny) that part? Did you forget (or did not know/deny) we actually supported them? And do you understand why we supported them? Because the Young Turks were supposedly appalled at what the current government was doing, and promised "better treatment for the minorities". That was their "campaign strategy/slogan" to gain power. And when they finally took over, we actually CELEBRATED. There was finally some hope for the Armenians. But celebration quickly turned to deadly disappointment, as their actions proved that they were no better then their predecessors, just under different skin. It seemed the main reason they wanted power was to create a Pan-Turkic Utopia, not to better the environment for minorities as promised. The advancement of the Russians, and the threat of ALL minorities revolting made up the Young Turks' minds. They figured "It's now or never. We either make an attempt at the dream, or we're going down, anyway". And the rest, as they say, is history...quite literally, in this case. So, basically, you're trying to turn our only means of self defense into "treachery", when in fact it was the ARMENIANS who were betrayed by the TURKS, not the other way around! If anyone played us like puppets, it was the Young Turks! Of course you can easily twist events around to make it seem like our side "deserved it" (in your/Turks minds'). But when you don't take history out of context, it appears very different, doesn't it?

As to why the less then 70,000 Armenians quietly go amongst their daily lives in Turkey, and don't say anything on this subject/display any animosity about the genocide, I sincerely hope this isn't part of your defense. Did you forget it was illegal to use the word "genocide" when addressing the Armenian massacres issue in your country? Just ask your Turkish scholars what happens when they admit to the genocide. Ask Hilal Berktay, Taner Akcam (first Turkish specialist to use the word "genocide"), Fikret Adanir, etc about their death threats, and how some of the others have had to go into hiding, now (oh, by the way, the VAST majority of Turkish scholars and historians call the Armenian massacres the 1st genocide of the 20th century). I can't seriously believe there are those that point to this as evidence that the genocide didn't happen, that only the Diaspora thinks so. Of COURSE the Diaspora is going to speak up! Anywhere outside of Turkey, we can speak without being persecuted for it (even your Turkish historians). You try that in Turkey, and you'll be thrown in jail IF YOU'RE LUCKY. Also, the majority of the Diaspora Armenians are the direct consequence of the genocide. It is their grandparents that went through the nightmare, not the ones in Armenia. It is only elementary then that the Diaspora Armenians take this issue more to heart then those still living in the home land.

No one denies there was killing on both ends of the spectrum. No one denies that Armenian nationalists were creating small pockets of rebellion. But let's not take the reasoning behind this out of context. You have said that the Turks didn't exile Armenians for no reason. You're absolutely right. I've given you our reasons for the minute outbursts, which you refer to as mass "treachery" deserving of the exile. Now where are your reasons, if the Ottoman Empire was so innocent, if we lived peacefully side by side, that we felt the need to rebel? Sure Turkey felt threatened by the approaching powers. Sure they felt the pressure coming down, but I highly doubt the handful of Armenians who had the capability to fight you were truly that big of a threat to you. The motives of the Young Turks take over seemed simple (only too late for the Armenians): Create a Pan-Turkic Muslim nation, free of ALL non Turkish/non Muslim ethnicities. Yes, there were other minorities besides the Armenians that stood as roadblocks in this dream, but the Armenians presented the biggest threat, as they were the largest minority, and had the greatest chance of standing up against this onslaught. And so, they had to be the first to go. I'm sure had the outside forces not come in and put an end to the Ottoman Empire, the cleansing would have continued well beyond just the Armenians. But they had to get rid of the Armenians first, for the obvious threat their population of 1.5 - 2 million presented.

And again, let's assume that the Turkish government did nothing wrong. Let's assume they were completely innocent, and Armenians were living very peacefully within the Ottoman Empire without persecution. Let's assume some nationalists decided to up rise for no apparent reason what so ever, and started to revolt and attack. AGAIN, where do a handful of "terrorists", or whatever you want to call them, justify the "exile" (and subsequent magical disappearance) of 1 - 1.5 million people? There were Jews in Warsaw rebelling/attacking against German occupancy, too. Should the Jewish holocaust not be considered genocide? After all, didn't they deserve it? I mean....that's treachery, those damn traitors! How dare they rebel against those innocent Germans, turning their backs on "their country", and siding with the enemy???

Thinktwice, as I've said, I've done extensive research from all sorts of sources, minus the Armenian ones. I'm well aware that figures and events are exaggerated from BOTH sides, which is why I avoided Armenian sources when trying to get to the bottom of this. But there was too much not adding up on the Turkish defense against these accusations. As I've said, it is ironic that the last place I expected to find many of my deciding factors on this issue is where they actually ended up being: Turkish sources. As opposed to most Armenians who despise it, I actually THANK Holdwater for tallarmeniantale.com. Before I ran into this site, I was quite skeptical about a lot of the evidence Armenians used to support the genocide. When I found Holdwater's site, I was prepared to have a lot of it blown out of the water. But much to my surprise, I found most of his arguments and attempts to dissect the evidence as weak. It seemed that the majority of his rebuttals were merely attempts to get off on technicalities. In fact, after exhausting many Turkish sources, I found the whole of the defense of the Turks to be nothing more then nit picking technicalities. This was not what I had expected. I had expected flat out denials, with counter evidence. While there were some good points and decent refutes, I found the majority of the arguments to be damning to themselves. They seemed to hurt the Turkish denial more then they helped it. Apparently, many Turkish experts (historians, socialigists, scholors, etc) feel the same way, as the number of those coming out of the woodworks to speak against their government’s stance on this issue increases. Between this, the slightly more liberal government that came into power in 2002, and Turkey's interest to get into the EU, perhaps the end of this ordeal is near.

"As more and more honest and sincere historians and public intellectuals of integrity keep speaking up, this dam will be breached, this dam of silence will be breached... this will be a fundamental dimension of internal democratization of Turkish society."

-Hilal Berktay, Turkish Historian (New York Times Article, 2004)

[TomServo]

I (as well as a few others) have done nothing but address your issues directly, not retort with insults. So I'd appreciate it if you'd look at the sum individually, and not the whole, as opposed to punishing the whole for the sum, as basically the Young Turks had done (according to your line of defense).

I'm doing the insulting. There's really no point in arguing against a stubborn Robo-Turk. Unlike toki, this one can hardly construct a coherent and understandable sentence. He's just programmed to repeat the same thing over and over again. If he can't come up with a response, he'll just say something like "LOOOOOOL pathetic diaspora lunch dinner liarses."

And i'm so sad for you diaspora people. I guess your pschology like this... Waking up with so-called genocide nightmare, talking so-called genocide in the breakfast to tell each other you must provide your hatred, trying to find another racist writing against Turks in work, while going back home seeing hallucination of Turks chasing you, and again nightmares.

Every word in that sentence is a lie except for "breakfast," because it has to do with food. I like food.

[Crimson Glow]

I'm doing the insulting. There's really no point in arguing against a stubborn Robo-Turk. Unlike toki, this one can hardly construct a coherent and understandable sentence. He's just programmed to repeat the same thing over and over again. If he can't come up with a response, he'll just say something like "LOOOOOOL pathetic diaspora lunch dinner liarses."

I realize that. The "repeating the same thing over and over again"....that's why he had me literally laughing out loud when he said I sounded like a parrot. The only reason I repeated the very few things I repeated was because he wouldn't answer the question/counterpoint directly. But I'm not presenting long counterpoints for the sake of getting through to him. There are other benefits. The more detailed and to the point the posts are, the more we have to link to when other Turks come in here raising questions about this subject, or are just browsing the forum. It also makes for more info for non-Turkish/non-Armenian people who may be researching the subject. And, most importantly to me, I have a different agenda in mind for the pieces from my arguments, and is why I took so much time on them. I will disclose this purpose in a seperate thread later.

[thinktwice]

Yeah you are parrots because you don't even know or understand what happened before WWI, during war and after. Always telling the same so-called genocide. Do you think you can handle archives ok here we go...

Am i going to believe you or OTTOMAN ARCHIVES?

Don't make me laugh anymore...

[TomServo]

Yeah you are parrots because you don't even know or understand what happened before WWI, during war and after. Always telling the same so-called genocide. Do you think you can handle archives ok here we go...

Am i going to believe you or OTTOMAN ARCHIVES?

Don't make me laugh anymore...

And your education in history is more valid because? You live in freakin' Turkey! Just like you've been saying, we're the diaspora. We don't get our education from Armenian scholars, or Turkish scholars, whereas you get yours from biased Turks.

[thinktwice]

And your education in history is more valid because? You live in freakin' Turkey! Just like you've been saying, we're the diaspora. We don't get our education from Armenian scholars, or Turkish scholars, whereas you get yours from biased Turks.

TomServo on action...

You guys making me laugh more and more each post. You stuck in corner like rats and started to cry "waaaa liar Turks waaaaa you can't beat mee waaaaa"

Let me guess you didn't even look at archive site or looked at topic only. I see you aren't biased people... LOL

[TomServo]

Actually, I read through most of it, but right off the bat it's easy to tell that most is BS. We've had other Turks here before giving us the same crap. Now bugger off.

[TomServo]

TomServo on action...

You guys making me laugh more and more each post. You stuck in corner like rats and started to cry "waaaa liar Turks waaaaa you can't beat mee waaaaa"

Let me guess you didn't even look at archive site or looked at topic only. I see you aren't biased people... LOL

You still haven't made clear how or why your education of WWI is more valid than ours. I'd really like to know...

[thinktwice]

Tell me how can we know who are biased and who are unbiased here. Then i can make a decision maybe.

I remind you one sentence of historians. They stated "Does it matter who are we? Turkish Historians and Armenian Historians... We are historians of all...". Maybe you are not capable of thinking like this eh?

Btw you -TomServo- are not so clever one and you didn't bring me any investigations. You know i'm not taking you serious you are just making me laugh. Just go and bring me some clue about your grandparents so i can flush them too.