Opinions of a Turk, or two (hi from Turkey)

[Crimson Glow]

True, it must be very easy to compose perfect explanations, by filling the blanks with false evidances like Blue Book, and even the author confrimed its only ww propoganda done by England ,France.. against enemy Ottomans, along with similar propoganda against Germany, during and after 1st WW.

Yes its very easy to be convincing , when you keep depending on lies.

Ahhh yes, you're absolutely right. Instead, I should be convinced by one of the dozens of versions of the truth the Turks offer, yes? It's funny how your reponse had nothing to do with addressing the issue I presented (of course, I should be used to that by now). My dear cemil....then you wonder why I repeat myself. Unlike you, my repetitive statements are not a generic, broken record refute for any and all points my oponent(s) offers. Rather, they show up multiple times because they keep GETTING IGNORED....

I told you MANY times now that my research dissallowed Armenian sources (which I have yet to hear a Turkish citizen try such a procedure/method), but was VERY extensive, nonetheless. With all that is out there information wise, even if it were 100% provable that the Blue Book was propoganda, we don't NEED it! Throw the freaking book away! There are too many Turkish and Turkish ally traitors who turned their backs on you (because they couldn't tolerate what you were doing), and recorded/reported what you were doing in many different ways. There were too many Turkish citizens reporting just how appauled they were by the the Young Turks' policies towards Armenians. Even if we set aside all policital evidence (archives, records, etc), there is just too much damning eyewitness testimonials from Turks and Turkish allys ALONE to make your defense credible. Again, I say maybe if you guys had one steady story to fight with, it wouldn't look like a disaster, but when YOU guys can't decide what really happened amongst yourSELVES.....well.....your denial becomes....a bit shaddy, to say the least.

Crimson Glow, you think you are more intelligent than most of Turks, dont you?

Please....don't underestimate my ego. I think I'm more intelligent than most of mankind, so don't take it personally.

You 'the only intelligent man', for the sake of not repeating same discussion over and over again, come over here http://forum.armenianclub.com/showth...4&page=1&pp=15 we are having a diccussion there.

Maybe instead of me joining another thread, you guys should stop making half a dozen of them. I'm not the one who split the discussion into several, seperate threads for basically the same subject.

Yes we dont have a consistent line of story, you are right. Because we didnt set up our national existence on a fable, on hatred, we didnt worked on it to tune-fine our side of story as you did for last 80 years.

Ummmm......do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? For starters, our "fable" hasn't been "fine tuned" for 80 years. It is the same scenerio we laid down during, and immediately after the events, which, if they were fables and lies, should have been proven completely false by now, and wouldn't have been open for discussion "for the last 80 (by the way, it's 90) years". After all, Turks have had 90 years to fine tune their denial, as well, so that's a pretty piss poor excuse for not being able to get it together, especially since YOU guys are telling the truth, right?

Being a completely preposterous fable as Turks claim the Armenian tale to be, they should have been able to tear apart our argument long ago, and leave NO DOUBT IN THE WORLD'S MIND that we are liars by now. Interestingly enough, rather then Turkey clearly showing our story to be a lie, and having the world dismiss/reject the case, more and more nations are beginning to embrace our "fable" officially, after carefull investigation. Even those that don't make it official (for fear of political relations repercussions/lossing an ally), they still address the event as a genocide when they speak of it in public. Why do you suppose that is?

Also, if we are the liars, I don't care HOW well we "fine-tuned" our story. There is only one truth to the past events/history, so Armenians "fine tuning" their story has absolutely NOTHING to do with you guys not being able to stick it out on one version of "history". So I ask you again, if Armenians are the liars, and Turks have the accurate knowledge and perception of history, why is it Turks can't agree on what that accurate/correct history is? How can you deny so vehemently if you don't have a common ground amongst yourselves to form that denial on?

[TomServo]

RookieArcher be confused.

[nunechka]

winoman that was a good one... THANKS! i heard about this, and when i thought of finding it, i dreaded the googling...

anywho, its funny how a country like turkey keeps fighting little tiny Armenia... it reminds me of Vartanants - but more with the information age battles...

armenians have been repeating the same thing doing the same thing and behaving the same way for the past 90 years concerning this subject (we havent changed our minds about one single thing), but turks change with the blow of the wind...

and one more thing TURKS! STOP COMPARING YOURSELF WITH MUSLIMS! you are no ordinary MUSLIMS! ok?! ok...

i know of many MUSLIMS! they are nothing like you...

[thinktwice]

We have poll with diaspora. Check it out:

Question: Are you trying to judge Young Turks (İttihat ve Terakki), Ottoman Empire, Turkish Republic, Turks... It's a bit confusing isn't it?

Answer (Diaspora): Uh oh we don't know...


Question: Can you judge Turkish Republic with your genocide term?

Answer (Let me answer): No you cannot judge us. Because we have Kars Treaty (1921). If you don't know, all actions between nations concluded with this pact... So you see you cannot even go UN, International Courts.


Question: So what do you want from Turkey?
Question for smartasses: Or should i ask What are your supporter politics want from Turkey?

Answer (Diaspora person 1): ban...
Answer (Diaspora person 2): long live genocide...
Answer (Diaspora person 3): I didn't understand what are you telling me...
Answer (Diaspora person 4): Look we have Turks here... Run away for your lives....


I'm flushing your so-called genocide... Have a nice day...

Yeah This one is my favourite

[apaydin2148]

NICE! I didn't know the Turks got their asses kicked by Armenians. This is so sweet. Maybe Armenians should acknowledge their Turkish Genocide and give all the lands and stuff they took from the turks back.

Oh pooooooor pooor Turkey ... so sad ... so sad. They were beat up by Armenians

I almost feel sorry for the poor Turks now.

you couldnt beat us excatly only hurt.if you could beat us there wouldnt be Republic of Turkey

[apaydin2148]

NICE! I didn't know the Turks got their asses kicked by Armenians. This is so sweet. Maybe Armenians should acknowledge their Turkish Genocide and give all the lands and stuff they took from the turks back.

Oh pooooooor pooor Turkey ... so sad ... so sad. They were beat up by Armenians

I almost feel sorry for the poor Turks now.

by this post i understand that you dont know history.you only talk about your parent's lies

[apaydin2148]

"no there was no Genocide - we were only moving Armenians to safe pastoral areas outside the war zone - for their protection"

"There were never very many Armenians in Anatolia to begin with - and BTW - those bloodthirsty Armenians - all 153 of them - managed to kill 8 million Turks! Look how they depopulated our nation of Turks - there are practically no Turks left in Turkey today- wahhh?"

etc

pleas read my firs post.you dont want to understand reals

[thinktwice]

Ummmm......do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? For starters, our "fable" hasn't been "fine tuned" for 80 years. It is the same scenerio we laid down during, and immediately after the events, which, if they were fables and lies, should have been proven completely false by now, and wouldn't have been open for discussion "for the last 80 (by the way, it's 90) years". After all, Turks have had 90 years to fine tune their denial, as well, so that's a pretty piss poor excuse for not being able to get it together, especially since YOU guys are telling the truth, right?

Maybe we should go back to 1877 and look the whole truth of revolts eh? Maybe it isn't period of 90 years it is period of 128 years that we must carefully investigate...

We all know most Armenians lived in Anatolia and in İstanbul during empire dominance after conquer of istanbul. We see Armenian people were living in peace and serenity in this years. They had working on their own businesses and empire was taking care of them like other minorities. Armenian patriach Nerses has given this letter to Citizenship council at 1876. It was stating: "We are grateful to Ottoman Empire. Because we are still Armenian society, we are keeping our faith, history, language and our culture. Thanks to protective, helpful and charitable Ottoman Empire. Destiny tied Armenians to Turks. Because of that we Armenians cannot remain silent against enemies of Ottoman Empire. On the contrary as usual we must help them. Armenians who is patriot, will get benefit of their helpful actions for their state."

We know Armenians like other minorities treated like first class people in empire. They didn't take to army, they carried out important commercial businesses. Further we see armenian government officials during 18th adn 19th centuries (some ministers: Gabriel NORADUNKYAN, Krikor AGATON, Krikor SİNAPYAN, Berdos HALLACYAN, Oskan MARDİKYAN, Mikael PORTAKALYAN, Agop KAZAZYAN Pasha).

After Bulgarians and Serbians independence in 1877 we see tsar of russia captured eastern anatolia and Caucasus with hand of Armenian Nationalists and officers taking side with tsar. These years were scene of racist and nationalist armenians. We best know 1887, Hınçak (Çan) and 1890, Taşnaklar (Taşnaksutyun) committees. Last period of 19th century was worst days for minorities and Turks.

Being a completely preposterous fable as Turks claim the Armenian tale to be, they should have been able to tear apart our argument long ago, and leave NO DOUBT IN THE WORLD'S MIND that we are liars by now. Interestingly enough, rather then Turkey clearly showing our story to be a lie, and having the world dismiss/reject the case, more and more nations are beginning to embrace our "fable" officially, after carefull investigation. Even those that don't make it official (for fear of political relations repercussions/lossing an ally), they still address the event as a genocide when they speak of it in public. Why do you suppose that is?

Which offical and careful investigation are you telling me?
They are speaking public because you are respecting diaspora propaganda and voting for them. I know you are clever enough to see politics behind the whole portrait.

Also, if we are the liars, I don't care HOW well we "fine-tuned" our story. There is only one truth to the past events/history, so Armenians "fine tuning" their story has absolutely NOTHING to do with you guys not being able to stick it out on one version of "history". So I ask you again, if Armenians are the liars, and Turks have the accurate knowledge and perception of history, why is it Turks can't agree on what that accurate/correct history is? How can you deny so vehemently if you don't have a common ground amongst yourselves to form that denial on?

Do you think we don't have common ground? Do you think that Ottoman archives are lies? You are denying Ottoman archives and what do you have in your hands? Do you have widely open German, French, English, Russian archives? Oh come on don't make me laugh anymore...

winoman that was a good one... THANKS! i heard about this, and when i thought of finding it, i dreaded the googling...

anywho, its funny how a country like turkey keeps fighting little tiny Armenia... it reminds me of Vartanants - but more with the information age battles...

armenians have been repeating the same thing doing the same thing and behaving the same way for the past 90 years concerning this subject (we havent changed our minds about one single thing), but turks change with the blow of the wind...

and one more thing TURKS! STOP COMPARING YOURSELF WITH MUSLIMS! you are no ordinary MUSLIMS! ok?! ok...

i know of many MUSLIMS! they are nothing like you...

We aren't fighting against armenia you silly armenian. We are fighting against your sneaky lobby activities and politic games worldwide. We don't even take you serious because you can't ever make so much noise by yourself. Also we all know you cannot make anything by yourself you are just like puppets. You need directions everytime. At this point imperial forces put you where do they want you to be.

We know you didn't changed your minds, someone show up and whispered your ears "you know, it was genocide..." in 1960s.

We are not changing any minds we are taking shots at points to make people realize that so-called genocide propaganda is pointless and misleading action of diaspora (well hidden imperial forces behind, like 1877-1915)

And you think you know but you don't even know or understand anything about us... Even most muslim countries don't understand Turks but everytime they take lessons from us. We -Turkish Republic and Turks- are one of our kind, mixture of west and east with great history. We are ancestor of unique empire in time...

I had a friend while i was having military service. His name was "Bedros TOMASYAN". He was great friend of mine and he had understanding of diaspora. He was calling diaspora a bunch of mindless people. It's your people not mine, understand?

Archives of your bloodthirsty grandparents massacres (some of them) in Caucasus and Anatolia (1914 - 1921). Here we go...

[apaydin2148]

Massacres of Muslims and Jews by Armenians
and Russian bandits

While Russians together with Armenian bandits were forced back from Hasankala to their own frontiers, they killed a part of the two thousand muslim folk they took away and drove the remaining to an unknown destination in the inland; in Erzerum the Russians and the said bandits executed nine people and sent the whole male population above forteen years to no one knows destination; in the sub-district of Pekreç a self appointed Armenian tribunal sentenced some three-four hundred people to the gallows and hanged them; in the surroundings of Aşkale, Tercan, Ilıca, Tavuskerd and Arvin no one muslim was left alive; in Van Armenians after having killed about two hundred women and children, massacred eight to ten thousand muslim people in the valley of Mahfuran; the population of the village Hot on the boundary of Narman were entirely exterminated with machine-guns; the majority of immigrants living in Marhi Sufla of the subdistrict of Çukur attached to Bitlis were put to the sword; the entire villages of Cinis, Pezantan, Ergani and Şemerşeyh with all of their inhabitants were burnt up and due to the pretentious ignorance of the Kurdish Bedirhani Kamil many villages’ inhabitants settled in the vicinity of Bitlis perished from starvation; seriously ill children cared of in Bitlis Hospital were savagely slain; in the village of Balıkan Corpses were thrown to the dogs to feed on; Çukur women and girls were raped and old people burnt, small children were bayoneted and many other massacres committed; all these facts are stated in copies of dıspatches sent by the governorships of Erzurum, Bitlis and Mamuretülaziz.

21 B. 1334 (24. V. 1916)

Bâb-ı Âlî

Dâhiliye Nezâreti

Emniyyet-i Umûmiyye Müdîriyeti

[apaydin2148]

Massacre of prisoners and Muslim population in the
nighborhood of Kars and Ardahan.

The number of Muslims committed to the guards of Armenians and massacred by them after being inflicted physical pains upon and struck by the butt of rifles reached 30.000; the Armenians serving in the Ottoman army were deserting and deliberately surrendering to Russians to disclose informations about the said army; Armenians from the Caucasus were first allowing to be taken prisoners by the Ottomans and afterwards evading and delivering to the Russians the intelligence they gathered.

19 R. 1333 (6. III. 1915)



Bâb-ı Âlî

Hâriciye Nezâreti

Umûr-ı Siyâsiyye Müdîriyet-i Umûmiyyesi

Mühimme Kalemi

Kayıt Numarası: 90

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