Do you want revenge?

[winoman]

Moderators - will you please remove these muliptle same posts...

...by our so-called "Armenian". This is just spamming. He is posting this same diatribe on every Genocide related thread. I also ask that he not be allowed to call himself "Armenian". These are both very serious requests)

[Otto]

it is not a hot topic without me.....

hey mr. winoman kids cornered you with intense nonsense... it is time to call the choppers eh?

i read your question but i forgot what was it....

actually after government objection caused this conference to be postponed thats true...
but they still had the option to go on because according to law they could do it... if they were brave enough
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it is a cycle.. a new Turk comes to this forum and says what we always say and Armenians say what they always say... so i am not going into that...
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if our state issued ideas on genocide are all known opposite ideas are well known and repeating themselves too... not much to talk about (i wrote this because your replys are too long for me to read..but i read them anyway)
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my point for this time is as follows....
( you dont need to tell me those countries already recognized the genocide it took some 80 or 90 years for them to recognize..thats really remarkable your european friends)


for example...

French - hey Turks behave or i recognize the genocide
Turks - piffffff alright we are gonna buy some choppers

German - hey Turk look here there are beautiful mine hunter ships and we know you gonna buy em...by the way thats Armenian genocide report in my hand now...i can read and recognize it any time
Turk - pifffff alright

italian - Hey Turk my GSM company is going bankrupt..and when they go bankrupt i get bored and read Armenian Genocide and sometimes i feel like i can recognize it
Turk - go ahead


question...ok we are donkey and that feels bad.... but how does it feel to be used as a whip as an instrument just because you are seeking justice?

remember i support you about the genocide ...but i think you all made this issue so cheap and let it be seduced by others just to achieve your goals...

and dont get too harsh on "Armenian" because this kind of people are needed too.... in case some cowards go hiding in the cellars they are the ones with guns in their hands to die for the country...
it was extreem nationalist at first that fought against PKK in Turkey..they have to be kept under control but surely needed...

lets say Turkey recognizes the Genocide today...its gonna take another 90 years to decide what to do about it and this time the color of the "whip" will be changed and it is gonna be seduced again and again.... and you will look more like crybabies to people who really dont care about you and acting solely for their own interests.. by every passing year

oh come on ...... even Arnold uses you ....he doesnt sell anything to Turks..it is trendy to recognize the genocide......

I am really sorry for the dead i guess they are seeing this and must be in Hells pain while they are in heaven.... pity pity pity on us....

[winoman]

Otto -

your issues mentioned here are likewise irrelevant to the prevailing issue of acknowledging the truth. I have no care for these poitics. I am talking about the facts and about history. And besides, I am more concerned with the shotfalls of your Government then that of Europeans or anyone else....and you should be too...

[Otto]

i am too.... errr... you should have some care about the politics.. you are killing the spirit of a good hot discussion.... and you english is too formal you know that? it is like reading a guide book...

[vatepiti]

please...the joke of an official archives - this has been discussed before. Let me tell you - do you know the source of most of these accusations of violence on the part of Armenians against innocent Turks of the Eastern provinces just prior to and at the stater of Ottoman Entry into WWI? No - thought not. It was Dr Bennedin Sakir. Know who he was? I find it quite odd that at the same time the generals of the Ottoman Army in the region are sending urgents messages that the Special Organization (directed by Sakir) be disbanded because of brigandage and massacre of civilian populations - including a great many attacks, looting and massacre of Muslim villages!!! (of course what do you expect when you employ released from prison violent criminals and Kurdish war bands used to raiding such villages...(also reported by German military units there) - I find it quite interesting that at the same time these reports are being sent to Istanbul - including the call for Sakirs dismisal (he was formally charged by the army and later by various Ottoman regional officials) - that Sakir returns to Istanbul with claims that it was in fact Armenians who were commiting these crimes (and these are much of the [so-called] reports contained in your precious archives...)...

And I should point out that I have already adressed the issue of corroboration and verification of Western observer accounts such as Bryce & Toynbee...as well as provided links to American and German archives...and these tell quite a bit I might add...and are quite reliable...

As for Ackam - again I ask - have you read him? Comment on the substance of the issues he raises if so...otherwise I ask you how you can think to claim that I don't know what i'm talking about...

I can see that we are going around a circle.
I can say you lots of things like the person whom you write wrongly his name (Behaettin Sakir) are not that much powerful people to organize such a crime against Armenians. All your "special organisations" against Armenians are very very debated issues. I can ask you how you can trust to the books published by Britian, France for propoganda who were at war with Ottoman Empire during that time but not trust the official documents. I can say that -Yes I read Taner Akcam's book and Dadrian (Institutional roles at Armenian genocide if I translate correctly). I can say that why Akcam is so popular between Armenians is because he support your thesis. Otherwise he is an activist rather than a serious academician.

There are some problems:
1. We want to talk about before 24 April and you want after it.
2. We want to talk about the judicial meaning of the word "genocide", you want the political aspect.
3. We are trying to justify us with an official propoganda (yes I'm serious )
You are trying to use western states to support your thesis but you are being used by them in reality.

[winoman]

i am too.... errr... you should have some care about the politics.. you are killing the spirit of a good hot discussion.... and you english is too formal you know that? it is like reading a guide book...

Ok - what can I say...believe me I smile much more then I frown - laugh more then cry (but do both of course) - even if my way of speech sounds harsh (formal) i am a very easy going person (in person) - in fact often many see me as too easy going and fail to understand my underlying seriousness and attention. Luckily I am often able to embody both simultaniously - but I follow the (my) Dao - so in fact this should not be a surprise.

Actually the discussion has not been so good IMO - but I thinki have made my points clear. I do not agree with you (though I understand your point) concerning hot heads like "Armenian" - we are all entirely better off without these types - it is these types that get us into these things in the first place. I can tell you are different. You would rather be out sailing I imagine...and I agree...

BTW - I have some (non Turkish or Armenian) friends who are visitng Turkey right now. I suggested for them to visit Izmir and further South (Ephesus, Bodrim, Feteyie, Antalya - etc) - but they are unable this time. Prior to them leaving we discussed much of Turkish politics and enviroment but I did not discuss the Genocide or such with them per se. Instead I sent them with some nice guidbooks and another book called "A Fez of the Heart - travels in Turkey in seach of a hat" - have you heard of this one? It talks much to the culture of Turkey between East and West. And I gave them a picture of Ataturk to keep with them - in case anyone might question where they stand - etc

[eMachine]

it will never be end. thats why lets say pfffff same things turning around...

[eMachine]

for example...

French - hey Turks behave or i recognize the genocide
Turks - piffffff alright we are gonna buy some choppers

German - hey Turk look here there are beautiful mine hunter ships and we know you gonna buy em...by the way thats Armenian genocide report in my hand now...i can read and recognize it any time
Turk - pifffff alright

italian - Hey Turk my GSM company is going bankrupt..and when they go bankrupt i get bored and read Armenian Genocide and sometimes i feel like i can recognize it
Turk - go ahead

it also makes Turkey stronger and stronger and stronger... EU presses on Turkey with Armenian turn, but an Armenian can not realize that they are playing wrong game =))
i hope Turkey can not join EU, if cant, EU press will be end and it makes Turkey much free... maybe we can make another genocide, take karabakh, and shut their mouth. they want it.

[winoman]

I can see that we are going around a circle.
I can say you lots of things like the person whom you write wrongly his name (Behaettin Sakir) are not that much powerful people to organize such a crime against Armenians. All your "special organisations" against Armenians are very very debated issues. I can ask you how you can trust to the books published by Britian, France for propoganda who were at war with Ottoman Empire during that time but not trust the official documents. I can say that -Yes I read Taner Akcam's book and Dadrian (Institutional roles at Armenian genocide if I translate correctly). I can say that why Akcam is so popular between Armenians is because he support your thesis. Otherwise he is an activist rather than a serious academician.

There are some problems:
1. We want to talk about before 24 April and you want after it.
2. We want to talk about the judicial meaning of the word "genocide", you want the political aspect.
3. We are trying to justify us with an official propoganda (yes I'm serious )
You are trying to use western states to support your thesis but you are being used by them in reality.

These issues are not debatable per se - they are true. the evidence comes exclusively from German reports and Offical Ottoman documentation and memoirs from Ottoman military personel as well as ex-Special Organization and CUP members themselvs. There is really little need to use any Western sources - but yes these are a great many and fully corroborate (and add much gory detail) to what we already know from official ottoman and German sources.

I talk about events before April 24 quite a bit. See you haven't read my posts - so how can we have a discussion - you keep posting out of your a s s with no relevancy. Likewise I am well aware of various definitions for Genocide and regardless of what is used - even the most strict and narrow - the Armenian Genocide qualifies - so what was you (no) point?

Likewise - I fail to see a point to your post. you are accusing me of all sorts of things but not discussing or addressing facts.

BTW - have you read Ackam yet?

[winoman]

it also makes Turkey stronger and stronger and stronger... EU presses on Turkey with Armenian turn, but an Armenian can not realize that they are playing wrong game =))
i hope Turkey can not join EU, if cant, EU press will be end and it makes Turkey much free... maybe we can make another genocide, take karabakh, and shut their mouth. they want it.

So you are essentially telling us you would rather remain stupid, guilty and unrepentent...and that you want to kill more Armenians....because they dare have a home of their own not under the domination of Turks...aren't you banned form this forum already?