do you really believe...

[Armenian]

"Armenian" has got his S&M gear on again.

Ya, know, you are like an annoying insect. Can you please get lost?

[Otto]

Karakitap please lets discuss things here. Accept that it is no use attacking me. We dont need to behave this way. Please try to be more calm and understanding.

[winoman]

Again its those individuals like carrot-top and (not) Armenian who got us into all this trouble in the first place. Carro-top is the epitome of the old guard Ottoman Turks who could see no order but that which they could impose on others by force - thus giving the minorities no option but to wish for independence from their tyranny. (Not) Armenian reminds me of those few misguided Armenian revolutionaries whose heart may have been in the right place but whose brains were lacking - they continually made the wrong (stupid) moves and provoked or at least gave excuse to the Turks to do great violence upon the great many innocnet and more realistic Armenians who were caught in the middle - hoping against hope for some decent Turks to hold sway (and they existed but could not sway the masses or hold onto power). If (not) Armenian had his way he would provoke the Turks to the point of them sluaghtering Armenians again and feel happy that he had stood up for Armenian nationalism...while Carrot-top would only be too happy to oblige and slaughter as many Armenians as he could possibly get to. Neither of these two understands that there are middle grounds and other ways for peoples to settle things where perhaps both could benefit and none suffer...if only they couls give up their grandious, unrealistic and blood filled dreams...

[karakitap]

Ottoman Empire did not oppress Armenians and make them to revolt. There were 3 Empires at 19th century. British, Austrian and Ottoman Empires. Of course neither of them were todays modern democracies, but if you compare the situation of minorities in this 3 empire Ottoman Empire was a heaven for minorities comparing to others.
In Austrian Empire, there wasn't a parliement for minorities to represent. At 1876 1/3 of Ottoman Parliement was consist from Christians. There were Armenian ministers in the government. You can not say Ottoman Empire was a tyranny for Armenians. OE was maybe the most tolerant empire of that time. But of course it was an empire and multinational. It had to be declined at 20th century and it did. I don't blame Armenians who revolt against OE. But you also shouln't blame OE as a tyranny for minorities. OE was a tolerant empire comparing to others since 1890s. After that time empire colllapsed and every nation (both Turks and others) suffered during last 20 years.

[winoman]

Carrot-Top - your understanding of Ottoman history is surface deep at best. If you cannot understand how Armenians were repressed - massacred, forced to emigrate - all a great many years prior to the genocide - well I would suggest you do some research and not accept a comic book level presentation that your school system put forth. Platitudes about the wonderful treatment of Armenians in the Empire just don't cut it. Jews were treated and accepted in Germany better then anywhere in Europe - so what are we to think - that nothing bad ever happened to them. The Sultan was forced to allow for the constitution and the Tanzimat reforms by intervention of the Europeans because of massacres and gross mistreatment of minorities (Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs, Armenians etc). As soon as he was able the Sultan suspended the constitution and disolved the parliment. Even when reinstated after the revolution of 1908 the CUP primarily worked around parliment and kept them in the dark - made them entirely impotent. Meanwhile the Sultan organized the Hamidie regiments of mounted Kurds and the CUP later formed the Special Organization - with tens of thousands of irregular units made from Kurds, released prisoners and other rabble for the sole purpose of massacreing and looting and surpressing the Armenians. Even before this the CUP engaged in economic warfare against the Christain communities and this was only the final measures after a great many decades of outrages against them. Learn your history dolt.

[karakitap]

Carrot-Top - your understanding of Ottoman history is surface deep at best. If you cannot understand how Armenians were repressed - massacred, forced to emigrate - all a great many years prior to the genocide - well I would suggest you do some research and not accept a comic book level presentation that your school system put forth. Platitudes about the wonderful treatment of Armenians in the Empire just don't cut it. Jews were treated and accepted in Germany better then anywhere in Europe - so what are we to think - that nothing bad ever happened to them. The Sultan was forced to allow for the constitution and the Tanzimat reforms by intervention of the Europeans because of massacres and gross mistreatment of minorities (Bulgarians, Greeks, Serbs, Armenians etc). As soon as he was able the Sultan suspended the constitution and disolved the parliment. Even when reinstated after the revolution of 1908 the CUP primarily worked around parliment and kept them in the dark - made them entirely impotent. Meanwhile the Sultan organized the Hamidie regiments of mounted Kurds and the CUP later formed the Special Organization - with tens of thousands of irregular units made from Kurds, released prisoners and other rabble for the sole purpose of massacreing and looting and surpressing the Armenians. Even before this the CUP engaged in economic warfare against the Christain communities and this was only the final measures after a great many decades of outrages against them. Learn your history dolt.

You are ignorant about Ottoman history because of several reasons.
1. Constitution is not forced by foreign powers. It is forced by a group of Turkish intellectuals called Young Turks. They were against Sultanate regime and the government was oppressing them. After the pressures of these groups led by Mithat Pasa, constitution is proclaimed. What is forced by foreign powers was a reform not the constitution. Contrary, constitution is proclaimed during foreign powers pressurized for reforms of autonomy and they became unhappy and angry to the constitution which unites the empire.

[winoman]

Constitution was originally forced on Sultan in 1839. It was suspended I believe in 1870s during Russo Turkish war. Young Turks revived the constitution. Some think this was a sham to lull potential foes - foriegn and domestic. I'm not sure i agree as there were liberals with the Young Turks/CUP - who broke away after 1909 and with many Armenians formed their own party that opposed the (militant) Young Turks (who had started to advocate Turkism - Turkey for the Turks). The CUP outlawed opposition parties and arrested and murdered many of their opponents and began a rule of terror particulalry after 1912. At various times they disbanded the parliment but after their puppet Sultan unexpectadly died (1918?) the new one re-instated parliment and began to support the clamour against the Young Turks who most educated Turks felt had plunged the nation into ruin and despair and were no better then a bunch of theives - as they enriched themselves mightly off of the Greeks and Armenians and basically plundered the whole nation.

Your various other claims are amusing.

[karakitap]

Constitution was originally forced on Sultan in 1839. It was suspended I believe in 1870s during Russo Turkish war. Young Turks revived the constitution. Some think this was a sham to lull potential foes - foriegn and domestic. I'm not sure i agree as there were liberals with the Young Turks/CUP - who broke away after 1909 and with many Armenians formed their own party that opposed the (militant) Young Turks (who had started to advocate Turkism - Turkey for the Turks). The CUP outlawed opposition parties and arrested and murdered many of their opponents and began a rule of terror particulalry after 1912. At various times they disbanded the parliment but after their puppet Sultan unexpectadly died (1918?) the new one re-instated parliment and began to support the clamour against the Young Turks who most educated Turks felt had plunged the nation into ruin and despair and were no better then a bunch of theives - as they enriched themselves mightly off of the Greeks and Armenians and basically plundered the whole nation.

Your various other claims are amusing.

Yes most of them are true but what is the relationship between what I said and these???
You claimed that foreign countries forced constitution and I said no Turks forced it. Now you are talking about how CUP abused the constitution later,etc.
And what is my claim which is amusing???
Do you want to show yourself as intellectual by copy/paste unrelated things about our discussion?
Or do you want to make rheatoric games?

[bell-the-cat]

pffff....
whatever it is. At least I don't lick the as* of people who insulted me to be more symphative and to find friends. I have a self respect.

So, Karakitap, you only licks the asses of those who praise you?

Don't you ever get ashamed or have a self-respect?

It is you who have no shame or self-respect.

[karakitap]

So, Karakitap, you only licks the asses of those who praise you?



It is you who have no shame or self-respect.

It seems that you are as boring as Otto.