How to help Turks listen to you and try to understand your issues?!

[loveataturk]

By the way, Selimiye Mosque in Edirne, and Suleymaniye Mosque in Istanbul, as well as many aquaducts....all built by Mimar (meaning architect in turkish) Sinan, in the 16th century, still are intact and beautiful today! Even his draw-bridges still survive after 500 years.

[Thai-Samurai]

thanx dude. Too bad the Armenian's didn't though.

[bell-the-cat]

By the way, Selimiye Mosque in Edirne, and Suleymaniye Mosque in Istanbul, as well as many aquaducts....all built by Mimar (meaning architect in turkish) Sinan, in the 16th century, still are intact and beautiful today! Even his draw-bridges still survive after 500 years.

His works were constructed during a very brief period in the life of the Ottoman Empire, a period when the empire - for a generation or two - seemed to be following the rest of Europe into the Renaissance (Sinan has been called a Renaissance architect). But then that stagnation and decay I talked about started again.

[loveataturk]

Bell_the_cat, how could Ottoman keep rising up and up forever? Obviously, every Empire has to crumble. Has there ever been any Empire on this world that was not built via stealing of other people's land and resources, and thus gaining their wrath? Egypians, Romans, Huns, Carthaginians, Ottomans, British, Soviets, Americans?
Turks call the 1919-1923 war "the war of independence", and it actually is a great struggle valiantly fought and won by Turks against Western invaders.
Then, ask Turks, how about the independence wars of Bulgaria, Greece, Egypt, Romani from the yoke of Turks? Turks will tell you "NO!! It was not independence war, it was rebellion!!"

See my point? It is not just Turks, though. Ask the Americans, and they tell you "FREEDOM" for somalia, FREEDOM for Iraq, FREEDOM for Panama!!

Then ask them about "Boston Tea PArty" against the British?

[Thai-Samurai]

Bell_the_cat, how could Ottoman keep rising up and up forever? Obviously, every Empire has to crumble. Has there ever been any Empire on this world that was not built via stealing of other people's land and resources, and thus gaining their wrath? Egypians, Romans, Huns, Carthaginians, Ottomans, British, Soviets, Americans?
Turks call the 1919-1923 war "the war of independence", and it actually is a great struggle valiantly fought and won by Turks against Western invaders.
Then, ask Turks, how about the independence wars of Bulgaria, Greece, Egypt, Romani from the yoke of Turks? Turks will tell you "NO!! It was not independence war, it was rebellion!!"

See my point? It is not just Turks, though. Ask the Americans, and they tell you "FREEDOM" for somalia, FREEDOM for Iraq, FREEDOM for Panama!!

Then ask them about "Boston Tea PArty" against the British?

A couple more good points, and you could write a dam well history thesis.

[winoman]

aturk lover - there was neither a rebellion nor an independence war of any kind by the Armenians. If you continue to believe fairy tales I think it will be very difficult for you to ever grow up...

[loveataturk]

I love Ataturk, first and foremost because he protected us from being losers in a war that meant the make or break of our nation. Thank God first and Ataturk next for having made us victorius against the inventers of the practice of genocide: the christian West. I also feel sympathy for the Armenian folk of the past of Anatolia, who were poisoned by the christian West into being their pawns against the Turkish land and people. But wake up, the Westerners were defeated and expelled. Armenians bet on the wrong side, rebelled and got crushed. I wish they had never rebelled, then we would still be living together, peacefully.

[skhara]

A couple more good points, and you could write a dam well history thesis.

Like his "good point" above?


To the retardturk:

Maybe you could explain how the armed to the teeth Armenian "rebels" allowed themselved to be marched into the desert with nothing while they rotted?

You spew the same type of garbage that was spewed by the Ottoman authorities at the time to insite the population against the Armenians.

Ottoman authorities declare: "Armenians are rebelling."
Armenians: "We are?"

Ottoman soldiers murder Armenian villagers, then dress them up in turk clothes. Then they bring out turk villagers and say "Look at what the Armenians did to your fellow Muslims", to insite them to do this:

To save shell and powder, the gendarmerie commander in charge of this large convoy had gathered 10,000-12,000 Turkish peasants and other villagers, and armed with “hatchets, meat cleavers, saddler’s knives, cudgels, axes, pickaxes, shovels”, the latter attacked and for some 4-5 hours mercilessly butchered the victims while crying “Oh God, Oh God” (Allah, Allah). In a moment of rare candor, this gendarmerie commander confided to the priest-author, whom he did not expect to survive the mass murder, that after each massacre episode, he spread his little prayer rug and performed the namaz, the ritual of worship, centered on prayer, with a great sense of redemption in the service of Almighty God...

And as far as "betting on the other side". Armenians did not bet on anything stupid ass. The massacres and deportations were happenning while the Turkish army was getting manhandled on the eastern front. The people who were getting massacred and deported were common villagers not "rebels". Think for a minute, it would be impossible to deport a rebel into the desert for he is armed and can only be killed in combat.

Armenians had been reaching for the west and Russia well before 1915, it was only natural for Armenians to do so because it was a civilizational question.

And as far as your "crushed" comment. Its easy to "crush" the unarmed women, the old, and the young. That was your "crushing", for you never "crushed" anyone man to man, toe to toe. For it was Armenians who taught turks a lesson at Sardapat at a time when Armenia was attacked on all fronts -- by turks, by Azeris, and even Georgians. The outnumbered, outgunned, and non-supplied fatigued soldiers inflicted a defeat on ataturks hoard and Armenia didn't fall until the joint Turko-Bolshevik invasion. Nonetheless, Armenian resistance to turks ensured the survival of Armenia, if they didn't defend against themselves against the Ottomans and Turkeys attempt to murder a nation, she wouldn't exist today.

Now then turk, once again, what is your intent here? You come to an Armenian forum to insult Armenians?

[winoman]

I love Ataturk, first and foremost because he protected us from being losers in a war that meant the make or break of our nation. Thank God first and Ataturk next for having made us victorius against the inventers of the practice of genocide: the christian West. I also feel sympathy for the Armenian folk of the past of Anatolia, who were poisoned by the christian West into being their pawns against the Turkish land and people. But wake up, the Westerners were defeated and expelled. Armenians bet on the wrong side, rebelled and got crushed. I wish they had never rebelled, then we would still be living together, peacefully.

Your contentions regarding the Armenians are entirely false - in regards to Armenians (as a people) "betting" on any side...again you - the decendent of the perpetrator - are taking the (false/shameful) easy way out and blaming the victims. Armenians as a group did not rebel - nor were they disloyal during WWI. The CUP used the war - and some scholars argue that much of the motivation/purpose to get into WWI in the first place was to disenfranchise the Armenians without fear of Western reprisal. Regardless it was no action(s) on the part of the Armenians which sealed their fate but a racist and paranoid and murderous agenda pursude by very nasty people - the CUP - and Armenians - as a people - were inocent victims of Genocide. No one but Neo-Nazis give credence to the multitude of rational given by Hitler and the Nazis for the need to remove the J ews from German society and their account of the harm done by J ews to them - etc - so what is your excuse?

I agree with you regarding Ataturk however. Though certainly no friend to the Armenians - and he has the blood of over 1/2 million Armenians on his hands BTW - and this is fact - he was a great leader for the Turks - a great strategist and thinker - and while both draconian and dictatorial (and you are aware how he murdered (and crushed) his opposition [repeatedly] after the Republic was founded - I assume (do they teach you these things in Turkey?) - anyway - Armenian could certainly have used such a man - and coud use such a man today - the Turks were extremely fourtunate that he came along when he did.

[loveataturk]

My use of the verb "crush" was openly and plainly directed against the Armenian militia. I do not believe in "martyrs" or "heroes", from any nation. When you do a deep research on wars and struggles, you come accross GREAT LEADERS who win wars, not brave soldiers etc.
Why did Hannibal win against the elder Scipios and the Romans continuously? Why did the later young Scipio manage to defeat the very same Hannibal? I am not intending to push the context out of our topic. I am trying to show that....successful and charismatic leaders are the KEY INGREDIENT for success, be it nation building or war. This is what the Armenian militia and their Western christian Imperialist lacked.
By the way, where in my comments do you find "INSULT" to the Armenian people? In contrast with flat out cursing words aimed at me, which I simply ignore, I am simply putting down historical TRUTH and FACT in place of the "SELF PITY GARBAGE" that is so prevalent here.