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Genocide Argument

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  • #1

    Genocide Argument

    THE BURNING TIGRIS: The Armenian Genocide and America's Response by Peter Balakian

    This book is going to be released on September 30th, and available in bookstores on October 1. The author, Peter Balakian, also wrote Black Dog of Fate, a memoir that was one of the most touching, interesting, and sometimes even funny books I have ever read. He is an eloquent writer and has spent a lot of time and energies, and put years, into writing this new book. I have already pre-ordered my copy from Amazon.com

    I am neither a promoter of Amazon.com, nor am I tryng to get Peter Balakian some money. Here is my point. I think all Armenians should have a copy of this book. Especially those on this website who seem to be so angry that nothing has been done yet to recognize the genocide. If at least 10,000 copies of this book are ordered/bought by September 30th, it will recieve best-seller status and be placed on best-seller lists

    Armenian National Committee of America, Action Report:

    TELL A FRIEND ABOUT "THE BURNING TIGRIS"


    Soon-to-be-Released Book by Peter Balakian Tells the Story of the American Response to the Armenian Genocide

    Noted writer Peter Balakian, author of the critically acclaimed "Black Dog of Fate," has written a landmark book "The Burning Tigris," on the U.S. response to the Armenian Genocide.

    This thoroughly documented history of the U.S. humanitarian response to the Armenian Genocide draws special attention to the vast cast of American heroes who raised their voices against the atrocities being committed by the Ottoman Turkish government against the Armenian people. Among those whose stories are told are Clara Barton, Julia Ward Howe, Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, authors Stephen Crane and Ezra Pound, and the many missionaries and diplomats who, through their tireless efforts on behalf of the Armenians, brought about the entry of the United States on the world stage as a humanitarian power.

    Set to be released by HarperCollins on September 30th, "The Burning Tigris" has already received critical praise from historians and genocide scholars including Sir Martin Gilbert, Robert Lifton and Deborah Lipstadt. Over the past month, several key publications, including the "Publisher's Weekly" and "Kirkus Review," have spotlighted Balakian's work.

    The ANCA has launched the "Burning Tigris" Education Campaign, a multi-faceted program to share the history of the Armenian Genocide and to celebrate the American humanitarian spirit. Your participation in this campaign will help 1) inform elected officials, the media and the American public about the Armenian Genocide, and; 2) ensure enough “pre-order” sales by September 30th to catapult "The Burning Tigris" onto best-sellers lists, dramatically increasing U.S. and worldwide readership.

    What You Can Do

    Take just a few minutes, today, to visit your favorite on-line bookseller and take part in the nation-wide ANCA "Burning Tigris" Education Campaign.

    1) Tell a Friend about “The Burning Tigris”

    Pre-order a copy for yourself and a friend who is not familiar with the Armenian Genocide or the response of the United States to this crime against humanity. Simply visit Amazon.com or your favorite on-line bookseller.

    2) Teach Elected Officials, the Media, and Libraries

    Donate a copy of “The Burning Tigris” to local elected officials, media outlets, and libraries to raise awareness about the Armenian Genocide. Just visit Amazon.com or another major on-line bookseller to pre-order a copy.

    The ANCA has already made arrangements to distribute 1,000 copies to Members of Congress and the Bush Administration, so please concentrate your efforts on the media, local and state government official, and libraries. (Please e-mail [email protected] to report your book donations.)

    3) Take a Friend to a Reading of "The Burning Tigris"

    After the September 30th release date, author Peter Balakian will go on a 15-city book tour, personally bringing this important period of American and Armenian history to communities nationwide. Take a friend to a reading and hear the author discuss his research and findings first hand.

    For an up-to-date 'current status' of the book or for a listing of Book Tour locations across the U.S. go to this website:

    Page not found - Armenian National Committee of America
    http://www.anca.org/anca/anca_home.asp


    Page not found - Armenian National Committee of America
    http://www.anca.org/anca/actionalerts.asp?aaID=68


    Thanks everyone!!
    Last edited by anileve; 02-19-2004, 09:50 AM.
    The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. -- F. Scott Fitzgerald
    Tags: None
  • #2
    thanx ck, I also got ANC's email about that..
    it's just too bad we have Armenians like "Anileve" here, who think we're being "rough" on turks of today, when we're trying to uncover the truth...
    so much for being an "Armenian"...
    with that kinda Armenians... I dunno how much we're gonna be able to do about this!

    Comment

    • #3
      wiping that dirty race off the face of the earth wouldnt be too rough. torturing each one of those dirty 65 million bastards wouldnt be rough.


      Azat Ankakh Hayastan!

      Comment

      • #4
        Originally posted by jahannam
        thanx ck, I also got ANC's email about that..
        it's just too bad we have Armenians like "Anileve" here, who think we're being "rough" on turks of today, when we're trying to uncover the truth...
        so much for being an "Armenian"...
        with that kinda Armenians... I dunno how much we're gonna be able to do about this!
        Your criticism of Anileve earns you the same thing. The truth has already been uncovered, it's only a matter of politics now, and it's politics that reigns and its politics that has made the Armenian genocide what is today. If we didn't live in a world of political systems and ideologies we wouldn't be interested in the Genocide. But because we live in a world of political systems and ideologies, everyone wants the most political gain. After all why do Armenians want the Genocide to be recognized? So they can get their lands back? Get financial compensation like the Jews? How many Armenians in my generation truly feel a connection between our grandparents and greatgrandparents and parents and how many dont? How many know the history of Armenia itself or the cultural aspects? Like I said before, all too often most Armenians don't know and just repeat what they've heard, "1915 Never Again". That's great. I agree, but how many of these people know about the history before, during and after that era? Perhaps the recognition of the Genocide will forever change Armenian cultural unity? Perhaps the only reason Armenians have survived until modern times is because of their small size and their resilience and abilitiy to adapt to the civilizations that have ruled them. Rome conquered through Armenia, Alexander did the same prior to that, the Persians as well, the Assyrians, the Medes, then the Mongols, the Ottomans, then for a time Armenia was "Soviet", yet where are most of these 'empires'? They are long gone yet this unique people have surivived and it is because of centuries of pressure from external forces that has made Armenian unity possible, due to constant state of threat. If Armenians were like other people, a hugely populated people that were bent on conquering other lands and subjugating peoples, perhaps history would have been different for Armenians and perhaps Armenians would have been one of the bigger Empires that have now vanished and we only talk about in history books and I wouldn't be here alive today, as an Armenian.

        Oh yea, and that all depends on what you mean by 'Armenian' because all people change, and what 'Armenians' were in the 1st century B.C., are different from who they are now, just like the the Turks of the early invading Ottomans are different from who they are now. History is not a particular point in time, but rather a process that we must sift through.

        Like the Jews, most Armenians are emotionally involved in the genocide and I don't blame them. When you are told, since birth, from most of your family that the Turks did this and did that and your ancestors were slaughtered, how else are impressionable minds going to react but to be instilled with this sense of emotional burden? By that I mean that our emotional factor sometimes is made to outweigh the historical factor, or simply the relation to people factor, and getting caught in emotions, might cause errors within the historical context of things. I personally have lost family in the genocide, however all too often I feel most Armenians are very much pressured into the 'we hate Turks' and 'we were slaughtered' groupings and all too often we fail to look at the historical context, and at an early age we are instilled with this fear. Now I am not excusing the genocide, in fact I would like for it to be recognized, but I wouldn't want for our genocide to turn into what the Holocaust has turned into, an industry that has reaped billions of dollars in profit from Germany, and the United States, etc., for the State of Israel and Jews and has distorted history in the process. This is detailed in Norman Finklestein's book, "The Holocaust Industry", in how Jews have exploited Jewish suffering and often created historical errors and false claims to further their ends. I have to say interpreting history accurately, makes alot of emotionally attached people angry.

        In fact Jews are so emotionally involved, that to question the historical validity of certain claims regarding the Holocaust is to earn you the label of a "anti Semite" and in some countries such as France, Canada, and Germany, it is illegal to question the historical veracity of the events that surround what we call "The Holocaust", in other words you would engage in thought crime. I don't want to limit historical study to the exponent of emotions, but rather to critical thinking and facts, even for Armenians.

        It's hard for me personally, because coming from an Armenian cultural background, yet involved in the study of history, I have to try to not let one get the better of the other, but rather find a happy medium.

        As surfer and I touched upon the issue of genocide and how we are taught at an early age how the Turks slaughtered us, this and that, and we hear that since we were kids ( at least I have ) and we are put into this prism of fear and emotion without studying the cultural, social, and political aspects of what went on that lead to that. I bet not many Armenians know that most of the 'Young Turk' elite were Denmeh Jews, Jews who had turned "Turkic" by simply speaking Turkish and saying they are Muslim. Ataturk himself was a Jew. In fact most of todays Jews, rather close to 80% of them are of Turkic origin themselves who settled in Europe and mixed with Europeans, and they are called the Ashkenazi Jews, descendants of the Khazars, an asiatic peoples who adopted Judaism sometime in the 6th or 8th century I believe, yet such an empire is erased off the maps and off of history. Why?

        Right now, I don't know why, but I hate many Turks, in fact most Turks, rather I would say I just hate Turks, but I know that would be a value judgement because I would be judging all Turks by a collective force and disregarding individuals, as it is individuals who are the movers and shakers of history and any people and whatever misguided indoctrination the individuals have received have been via the State. It could be because of what I have been told since birth of what Turks did to my people, it could also be because of the governments continual denial. Whatever it is, something has clearly molded my mind to think this way. But I will not hold the average Turk responsible for the crimes of the government of the past. Most will call me an Armenian traitor, etc. but I would rather live by a logical principle, than be thwarted in the collective emotional herd. After all if the present citizenry deny the Armenian genocide, they only mimic what the government teaches and says, as all people are a slave to their respective states, and political systems ( hence I am against political systems ). I do hold the present government responsible for the continual denial. But then again Israel has denied the recognition of the Armenian genocide, along with the Holocost Museum in Washington. Isn't it a coincidence that the three staunch allies are Turkey, U.S., and Israel? The only "holocaust" that matters is clearly the Jewish one. A close look at the word "Holocaust" will already lead people to question the validity of that events that surround it. It literally means a great death by fire, yet the claims of how millions died during the Holocaust were by gas chambers. Originally it was alleged that live people were thrown into crematoria and burned, but that is untrue and no longer held as a correct view.

        As far as the assertion "brought about the entry of the United States on the world stage as a humanitarian power" I find that ignorant, hypocritical and historically innaccurate coming from this author, since the U.S. is one of the leading states that has committed atrocities around the world and continues to do so as we speak. Why would you expect a State such as this to have an objective, unbiased and ethical stance regarding the slaughter of Armenians when it itself engages in such acts? After all, this country has engaged in the slaughter of many people and still does. It is similar to governments via law enforcement, criminalizing and punishing those whom we call murderers and robbers, etc., but the State is essentially allowed to do the same around the world and go unpunished because it is the State. Until we change our way of thinking, nothing will change.
        Achkerov kute.

        Comment

        • #5
          Originally posted by TigranJamharian
          wiping that dirty race off the face of the earth wouldnt be too rough. torturing each one of those dirty 65 million bastards wouldnt be rough.


          Azat Ankakh Hayastan!
          This is the sort of blind emotional hatred I am talking about, the type that is bred among Armenians. Little boys in my neighborhood simply just hate Turks without meaning without reason, and it is to the point of saying "I would kill them all". Are Armenians displaying genocidal tendencies within themselves?

          I have read, seen, and heard of many Jewish statements after the Holocaust of how they hate Germans and wish them death, and now in Israel, Jews are engaged in the same form of persecution, hatred, and extermination towards another people, the Palestinians. The victims are now the victimizers. Like I said, this sort of blind emotional allegience to the 'we hate Turks we want them dead' cult, is not beneficial for Armenians, especially if you want the world to hear your case. Most Armenians just outright hate and in fact wish the death of Turks, but why would you want to harm another person, especially if you are the victim and you are sympathetic to those who have been victimized?

          As a person who has felt the pain of loss of loved ones, and after reading the history of this people and others, and I know that Armenians aren't the only ones that have been slaughtered but people throughout the world have been subjected to such destruction, and understanding the pain it has went through, I wouldn't want anyone else to experience pain.

          Your statement clearly shows a dissociation between you and the facts and you are clouded in nothing but emotions and hatred. If Turks hated and slaughtered Armenians, why are you responding with the same force?

          The lesson is pretty simple, do not do unto others, what you don't want done to you.
          Achkerov kute.

          Comment

          • #6
            he didn't say he's GONNA kill turks
            he said it wouldn't be rough EVEN if they were killed...
            it's a way of showing anger...
            you know...
            sometimes people get angry, when other people show unacceptable behavior...
            he's angry just like I am
            just like most Armenians are...(apparently unlike you)
            anger and hatred are feelings
            you can't tell people not to hate or not to be angry...
            just like you can't tell em to love or feel happy...
            everything happens for a reason...

            oh and if you wanna be logical, do me a favor
            next time, don't compare Armenians 2000 years ago to turks 90 years ago...
            turks 90 years ago are the grandparents of the denial oriented turks of today...

            Comment

            • #7
              thanks jahannam.
              Anonymouse you talk like you are not an Armenian. you try to take this progressive neutral stance but i dont think thats an option for someone whose great grandparents were probably raped and murdered by the same people you are defending and telling us not to kill. just think in your head for a moment what they did to us. dont think of the numbers. think of how they were inhumane enough to go and do this to human beings. they animals who have descended from mongolia and brought a plague not only on Armenians but all of Europe and Asia as well. so you can go around and be a turk lover but i will always hate them, even if they find it necessary someday to apoligize because there is political presure on them. Murdering, terrorizing and robbing a whole nation of its lands and wealth is not something you forgive. taking such a soft stance against hte turks convinces the rest of the world that it was not a big deal and we are ready to forgive and forget and as a result people place less emphasis on what has happened to us and do not put it on the present politcal agenda. Do you think if Armenians in France said " oh its okay they are humans like us they made a mistake, it is a different generation now they are not to blame, and it is more important to look forward then dwell on past events" then the French would have recognized the Genocide.so please reconsider the stance your taking because your not helping our cause at all.

              Comment

              • #8
                Originally posted by TigranJamharian
                thanks jahannam.
                Anonymouse you talk like you are not an Armenian. you try to take this progressive neutral stance but i dont think thats an option for someone whose great grandparents were probably raped and murdered by the same people you are defending and telling us not to kill. just think in your head for a moment what they did to us. dont think of the numbers. think of how they were inhumane enough to go and do this to human beings. they animals who have descended from mongolia and brought a plague not only on Armenians but all of Europe and Asia as well. so you can go around and be a turk lover but i will always hate them, even if they find it necessary someday to apoligize because there is political presure on them. Murdering, terrorizing and robbing a whole nation of its lands and wealth is not something you forgive. taking such a soft stance against hte turks convinces the rest of the world that it was not a big deal and we are ready to forgive and forget and as a result people place less emphasis on what has happened to us and do not put it on the present politcal agenda. Do you think if Armenians in France said " oh its okay they are humans like us they made a mistake, it is a different generation now they are not to blame, and it is more important to look forward then dwell on past events" then the French would have recognized the Genocide.so please reconsider the stance your taking because your not helping our cause at all.
                First of all, read what I write before spewing your gutter. I never said I am apologizing for what Turks did and in fact I do not forgive what has been done and I did expect to be called "a traitor" by a few, who like you, think only with blind emotion. Second of all I believe I make logical points in my post which I would appreciate you to address and refute, as opposed to making emotional rants and raves.

                Just because Turks killed Armenians en masse, why would you want to do the same? You are only admitting you will stoop to their level and more importantly you haven't learned anything from the genocide, and if anything that is the most detrimental stance towards our cause. If foreigners see you are dislpaying hatred and genocidal tendencies, the same thing which you claim to be fighting against, what is the point, you only render your own stance moot. I suggest you rethink your position and actually really think for yourself, not with the collective herd. If you knew anything about Armenian history, you would know that Armenians have never been aggressors or bent on conquering and subjugating other peoples and like I said, their survival has been due to the fact taht they are a small people and resilient and have been able to adapt to the various forms of external control impose upon them.

                Second off, I am not a "progressive liberal", in fact in all my dealings I try to be as moderate as I can and in many views I am a conservative. That being said you clearly display no ability to comprehend what you read, nor to offer any logical and analytical input, but rather what I mentioned, just emotional appeal. And history and time always changes and if you don't change yourself and your thinking then you will only lag and eventually dig your own grave. To paraphrase my professor, history is not a point in time, it is a process and it always changes and so do we as people. Those who do not change, you read about them now in history books, they don't exist any longer.

                YOU SAID:" oh its okay they are humans like us they made a mistake, it is a different generation now they are not to blame, and it is more important to look forward then dwell on past events""

                It is stupid to blame the present Turkish generation as I pointed out. Until you offer a rebuttal and reason why we should blame them then you are making no sense here and you're just wasting disk space. That doesn't mean I forgive what has been done. I explained how all people are a product of their respective governments and the average citizenry only repeat what they have been indoctrinated with, whether via the media, or schools.

                So by your logic, if you were in a position of power you would probably resort to a genocide of Turks, you would kill them and rob them of their property, wouldn't you? That sounds awfully alot like what they did to us, and in fact what any great power has done to the little people.

                I explained how our "cause" has turned more into a political cause than anything, with Armenian youth not even knowing the cultural or historical aspects of that era, before it and after it, and you probably don't know either. As surfer pointed out, our sole cause has been "genocide genocide" and it has warped us into a special interest group begging others to accept our genocide. I do not agree with how the genocide has been politicized. I do not like politics. There is a whole history of Armenia and Armenians, aside from the genocide but many Armenians don't know anything before the genocide. For most Armenians that is where their history begins and that is made the sole cause. I disagree with such blind allegiance to some political cause. I am not forgiving nor apologizing for what has happened, but no amount of emotional outburts and hatred changes the past. Remember history is not a particular point in time, it is a proces. Look at Armenians and Armenian history in general not just that one aspect.

                You simply responded the way I expected you to respond, with the apeal to the blind emotions and you clearly didn't get anything out of what I posted.

                My "position" is as stands, namely that I do not agree with the majority of Armenians and how they politicize and polarize the genocide issue. Whereas you have submitted yourself to thinking like others, I choose not to, and I choose to dissent from the opinions of the majority.

                I am Armenian. I love my people. I love my langauge, and my culture, and I love my history and family. I am proud of who I am, and my position doesn't make me any less Armenian than you, and I take offense at what you said. Erase that stupid mentality of thinking which only creates divisions within us.
                Achkerov kute.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Originally posted by jahannam
                  he didn't say he's GONNA kill turks
                  he said it wouldn't be rough EVEN if they were killed...
                  it's a way of showing anger...
                  you know...
                  sometimes people get angry, when other people show unacceptable behavior...
                  he's angry just like I am
                  just like most Armenians are...(apparently unlike you)
                  anger and hatred are feelings
                  you can't tell people not to hate or not to be angry...
                  just like you can't tell em to love or feel happy...
                  everything happens for a reason...

                  oh and if you wanna be logical, do me a favor
                  next time, don't compare Armenians 2000 years ago to turks 90 years ago...
                  turks 90 years ago are the grandparents of the denial oriented turks of today...
                  Yes anger and hatred are feelings, and misleading ones at that. I would hope you do not let them rule you.

                  Okay obviously you don't know anything about history nor what I said. I said the Turks of today are not the Turks of the invading Ottomans because people change, the same applies to Armenians. And today's Turks only deny what their government has told them to deny. That is the way it goes, their people are in a "matrix" basically, just like you are in your matrix.

                  I don't see a point in blaming the average Turk who is molded into how to think by their government, much like you are molded how to think by the politicos of the genocide issue. I only point to diksoliel for her open mind to come here and to try to learn. That shows the power of the individual prevailing over the mass mindedness of the collective herd that tries only to subdue people, yet you and others are constantly pestering her. Relax lady, she has no control over what the Young Turks did, most of them Denmeh Jews anyway, and what the government tries to do now as well.

                  I would appreciate it if you stop pointing me out as someone who is okay with what happened to our ancestors and not being Armenian enough. Clearly this shows to me that Armenians haven't changed much and in fact much of what happens to us is rooted in our thinking and pointing to one another as the reason for the genocide not being accepted. It has nothing to do with you or I because I go to do something on April 24th just like anyone else. If you understand power politics you would know that the genocide is not allowed to be recognized by Turkey, Israel and the U.S. It's all politics, which makes our political whorring moot. Instead remember the genocide, have a day of mourning, honor those that died by being a better Armenian and keeping your Armenianness, as opposed to begging for political votes, which makes no sense, because political establishments don't move to the whim of the masses, instead they control the masses. People have no voice in the illusions we call "democracies". If our thinking doesn't change, then nothing does. I can guarantee you anything our ancestors that did perish would have wanted us to be better Armenians and hold greater unity and cultural ties, than beg for political votes because what they lost was their identity and culture, not some political issue, and they would only want us to hold dear to what they lost, that is our identity. xxxx politics.
                  Achkerov kute.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    So your solution is to hate?

                    He who lives by fighting with an enemy has an interest in the preservation of the enemys' life.
                    - Neitzsche

                    disksoliel, if you stay around long enough to post and read other posts on this forum, you will find that not all Armenians are pissed off or ignorant enough to harbour feelings of hatred inside for turks. I am the first to admit that I am not 100% comfortable around someone when I find out that he/she is a turk. That is quite understandable, I think. However, I never understood this extreme hatred of others that allows people to even think things like 'who cares if all of them were murdered, i want to kill them all' as someone posted before. Granted, I never had to live through or experience the atrocities the 'Young Turks' and their hordes of followers put my forefathers through, but I think it does their memory no justice to harbor feelings of hate inside of us. Doesn't that seem kind of backwards, since hate was one of the reasons behind the Genocide?? Seriously all hate does is bring more hate. Cliche, I know, but it's true. It seems we forget that all the turks didn't jump on te bandwagon and kill the Armenians. There were Turks who tried to help, even faced persection themselves to do so. So how can we categorise all turks as awful people and box that up and make ourselves feel better that way?I mean, it seems understandable to me that someone your age questions the idea of the Genocide, I meant just as we grew up learning that the Genocide happened and studying it and being saddened by it and commemorating it, you must have grown up learning the opposite, so why should be assume you have to believe everything we say when you have learned something quite different to begin with. Although I am glad to know that you are curious and think it may actually have happened. Now the next step is to learn more about it from historical sources, it will bring you to a greater understanding of what happened. I will be repeating things already mentioned by anonymouse if I give you my views on the topic of genocide, because I agree with him on everything he says. I have to add though, that I believe the only way to get anywhere is through education. Having people, like you, who want to know the history, the truth (does anyone ever know the whole truth?), and even people who are apathetic and ignorant and hating, read accounts of the genocide written not by armenian people (you might think they are biased) but by other people. I even know of a Turkish person who wrote a historical account of what happened and outright apologized for what his forefathers had done. I can appreciate that kind of educated approach, rather that this over the top red faced pissed off hate you all kind of thing. Aren;t we supposed to be more understanding than those who did this to us to being with???

                    (excuse me if I rambled on a bit and became redundant or not very clear, it happens to be 5am and i am quite tired and somewhat incoherent and just feel this beyond words incredulity that armenians my age can have such feelings of pure hatred. Jahannam, I have been in AYF and i believe in the 'Azadoutiun gam mah' philosophy, however I still don't think hatred puts us anywhere but in a backwards direction)

                    I will permit no man to narrow and degrade my soul by making me hate him
                    - Booker T. Washington
                    [/b]
                    The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. -- F. Scott Fitzgerald

                    Comment

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