Berlin Permitting Ultranationalist Turkish Protest denying the Armenian Genocide

[TurQ]

This was actually for your claim being that only 20-40,000 Armenians left in Anatolia.

You might also accept those left in Anatolia as died and are not concerned their further life, the thing is how can you be comfortable with it.
I already told you how I thought, the remaining Armenians gradually left Anatolia. Thats clear. Ottoman figures give 800,000 numer as well(This is for you gondoryan) and Ottomans did actuall punished those reponsible(What a genocidal state is this right?).

And as far as the worst ever events, gondroyan I urge you to learn more about Mora Turks and Muslims in 18th century by Greeks and Russians or again Russians massacred Turks, or Muslims of Balkans in late 19th century or plight of Caucusian Muslims again in 19th century.


IF you Gondoryan are not actually interested on those events dont ever make remarks on Armenians

I agree with your point Gondorian and have often made this point to Turks before. The important facts are that the genocide is well documented and that Armenians are no longer living in Anatolia (and this is not a result of a gradual exodus BTW - no matter what TurQ attempts to claim)

[maral_m79]

Maral

I promised to post the interview with Hrant on those Armenians who were left in Anatolia. I think that particular thread was closed down or locked. So I post it in here, it is in Turkish I'll just translate the relevant part and the rest will be available in Turkish in the link.

http://www.milliyet.com/2005/10/17/siyaset/asiy.html

'How can we accept the remaining (Armenians) dont exist?'
.......

I dont think it is a problem to talk about those who left (in Anatolia after 1915 events).
I once talked with an Armenian Historian and asked "Other than those died and exiled how many actually remained in Anatolia?"
He said 'around 500,000' and added 'We dont do much research on this, it is not necessary', since, he said 'it'll(might)damage 1.5 million thesis, we accept all of them as died. How could this be(acceptable)? How can you accept those who are alive as died?

(Note: in my prev posting Dink used 300,000 number based on Leusanne treaty numbers, here he conveys the number by the Armenian historian)

Also in the interview Dink openly uses the word genocide, but he also thinks it is irrelevant (not useful/productive) to insist on the wording. This is for some forum members insisting that the word genocide is prohibited in Turkey

Size göre nedir?
Soykırımdır
Q:What is it according to you?(the description of 1915 events)
A: It is Genocide

---
He also points out the role of west(Europeans) in Turkish Armenian conflict in 1915 and this issue is being used as political tool by them now.
He also says that it is possible to find another way without labeling 1915 events as genocide(he talks about the diaspora).

'İlişkiyi xxxan yine Batılılar'

Birinci Dünya Savaşı'nda Osmanlı'ya karşı Doğu cephesinde Ruslarla birlikte hareket eden Ermenilerin Türklere karşı kışkırtılmasında Avrupa'nın hiç mi rolü yok? Günah çıkarmak için, 'soykırım'ı gündeme getiriyor olmasınlar. Bir ülke yurttaşlarını durup duruken niye sürsün?
Tarihe bakarsanız, iki halkın asırlardan gelen ilişkisini xxxan yine Batılılar oldu. Ermeni kaynaklarında da böyle yazar.
1915'te yaşananlara 'soykırım' demeden felsefi bir tanım getirmek de mümkün. Yaşam dediğiniz şey canlı ile canlı varlığın alanı arasındaki ilişkidir. Eğer o canlıyı kendi alanından kopartıp, altın uçaklarla bir yere götürseniz bile onun yaşamına son verirsiniz. Çünkü kökü orada, asırlardır bir uygarlık üretmiş yerden göğe kendi varlığını, rengini, kokusunu hissettirmiş. Onun için diaspora da yaşamıyor, gözü sürekli Türkiye'de, çünkü kökü burada.
Ermeniler ve Türkler şu anda ikiz ruh gibi. Türkler demokrasi operasyonunda yatmışlar ameliyat görüyorlar, biz de elini tutmuş onun çektiği acıyı çekiyoruz. İyi olmasını istiyoruz çünkü o demokratikleştikçe biz iyileşeceğiz. Mezar kazarak, 'Ermeniler bizi kesti' diyerek bir yere varılmaz. Birbirimizi mat etmeye değil, anlamaya dönük bir konuşma uslubu geliştirebilmeliyiz.

He also makes a very important comment on solving Turkish-Armenian problems. "The key solution is to have relations/interactions"

'Sorunların anahtarı ilişki'

Bugünkü Ermenistan yönetiminin bakış açısı nasıl? Sınırın açılması beklentisi sürüyor olmalı. Son gelişmeler ve AKP'nin tutumu nasıl görülüyor. Bir 'Ermeni Konferansı' toplanmış olması Türkiye'deki tabuların yıkılması kadar Ermenistan açısından da atmosferi yumuşatmış olmalı.
Ümit verici bir atmosfer doğdu. Başbakan'ın bu yıl geliştirdiği bir açılım var, o da Ermeni dünyasını olumlu etkiledi. 'Gelin tarihle hesaplaşalım, karşılıklı acılar yaşanmıştır, gerekirse özür dilemesini de biliriz' gibi bir mesaj ortaya çıktı. Türkiye bu çağrıyı yaptı ama üslubunu yaratamadı. Hem böyle bir çağrı yapacaksınız, öte yandan Türk Tarih Kurumu Başkanı gidecek Anadolu'da mezarlar kazacak. 'İşte Ermenilerin soykırıma uğrattığı Türkler' diye dünyaya lanse etmeye çalışacak. Bunlar, Ermenistan'da ürküntü yaratıyor.

'Kalanları nasıl yok sayarız?'

Tehcir sırasında Anadolu'da komşularına emanet bırakılan çocuklar var...
Emanet eden de var, kaçırıp alıp götürenler de. Ben bir Sabiha Gökçen haberi yaptım, ondan sonra Türkiye üzerime yürüdü ve ben şu anda başıma gelenin de onun bir devamı olduğunu düşünüyorum.

Atatürk'ün manevi kızı hakkındaki yayın.
Sabiha Gökçen'in bir Ermeni yetim kız olduğunu iddia eden akrabaları ortaya çıktı, Halep'ten gelmişler, başka belgelerde vardı, gazetemde bunu yayımladım. Hürriyet'te aldı manşet yaptı, Türkiye'de kıyamet koptu. Benim derdim, şu tarihi hep ölenler üzerinden konuşuyoruz, biraz da kalanlar üzerinden konuşabililir miyiz acaba? Bekir Coşkun'un 'Ermeni meselem' diye yazıdığı çocukluk anılarını okurken düşündüm ki biz aslında bu öykülere hasretiz. Bunları ortaya çıkarmakta mahsur yok. Ben bir Ermeni tarihçiyle konuştum. Peki ölenler ve sürülenler dışında kaç kişi kaldı Anadolu'da diye sordum. '500 bin dolayındaydı' dedi sonra da 'biz bunun araştırmasını çok yapmayız, gerek yok ' diye ekledi. Çünkü 1,5 milyon tezine zarar getirebilir biz onları 'öldü' kabul ediyoruz, dedi. Böyle şey olur mu? Kalan insanları nasıl yok sayarız?

Thanks TurQ, for sharing the interview and trying to translate parts of it...

But in the interview Dink did NOT say "American Armenian Historian", did he ?
And the number of survivors can be 450,000-500,000 Armenians, that's not a secret at all, it's not an inside info that Dink was revealing for the first time or anything. I've read some articles before that suggests or to be specific "estemates" the number of survivors to be 450,000 Armenians.. But what you haven't notice, that those survivors DID NOT REMAIN in Anatolia AT ALL, they were almost all found in Arab countries, Iran or Russia.

Even that number of surviving Armenians the 1.2-1.5 million victms' number won't be much different, because all sources (aside from the Turkish ones) agree that the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire was estimated to be 1.8-2 million Armenians ... I don't see why any knowledgable historian would think that 500,000 survivors will make any difference in the total number of victims!

anyway, thanks for the interview

[maral_m79]

This was actually for your claim being that only 20-40,000 Armenians left in Anatolia.

You might also accept those left in Anatolia as died and are not concerned their further life, the thing is how can you be comfortable with it.
I already told you how I thought, the remaining Armenians gradually left Anatolia. Thats clear. Ottoman figures give 800,000 numer as well(This is for you gondoryan) and Ottomans did actuall punished those reponsible(What a genocidal state is this right?).

And as far as the worst ever events, gondroyan I urge you to learn more about Mora Turks and Muslims in 18th century by Greeks and Russians or again Russians massacred Turks, or Muslims of Balkans in late 19th century or plight of Caucusian Muslims again in 19th century.


IF you Gondoryan are not actually interested on those events dont ever make remarks on Armenians

Again, even if 500,000 Armenians survived the Armenian Genocide, that does not mean that they were in Anatolia... and as I said before, all Armenians in my community had been uprooted from Anatolia 1915, and never manage to go back !

800,000 Armenians were punished according to Ottoman records, that is true, but what you seem to be missing here, is that According to the Ottoman records Armenian population was 1.2 million !!

So, if you make a ratio, it will be almost the same ! 800,000 people out of 1.2 million is not a small number or percentage, isn't it ?

[TurQ]

Maral
He told this in several interviews, I have found 2 of them.
I can look for the other interviews where he actually mentions the American Armenian.
My gut feeling is that he means Dadrian, but that my opinion. He told this in major Turkish media, in my opinion he is challanging them to drop their stance of assuming all remaining Armenians as death. He is an outspoken person in nature.

Thanks TurQ, for sharing the interview and trying to translate parts of it...

But in the interview Dink did NOT say "American Armenian Historian", did he ?
And the number of survivors can be 450,000-500,000 Armenians, that's not a secret at all, it's not an inside info that Dink was revealing for the first time or anything. I've read some articles before that suggests or to be specific "estemates" the number of survivors to be 450,000 Armenians.. But what you haven't notice, that those survivors DID NOT REMAIN in Anatolia AT ALL, they were almost all found in Arab countries, Iran or Russia.

Even that number of surviving Armenians the 1.2-1.5 million victms' number won't be much different, because all sources (aside from the Turkish ones) agree that the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire was estimated to be 1.8-2 million Armenians ... I don't see why any knowledgable historian would think that 500,000 survivors will make any difference in the total number of victims!

anyway, thanks for the interview

[TurQ]

Maral

Dink's question to that historian is clear "After exiles and deaths how many Armenians actually remained in Anatolia?".

According to Ottoman record 800,000 Armenians died during the Tehjir(Deportations), I didnt use the word punishment.

I said Ottomans punished those who were responsible of the death of Armenians.
Some weeks ago Gavur posted (I think again by Dadrian) the names of those punished by Ottomans and early Republican government.


I didnt say the number is low, what I have said earlier is that the remaining Armenians left Anatolia gradualy till the 60s.

Again, even if 500,000 Armenians survived the Armenian Genocide, that does not mean that they were in Anatolia... and as I said before, all Armenians in my community had been uprooted from Anatolia 1915, and never manage to go back !

800,000 Armenians were punished according to Ottoman records, that is true, but what you seem to be missing here, is that According to the Ottoman records Armenian population was 1.2 million !!

So, if you make a ratio, it will be almost the same ! 800,000 people out of 1.2 million is not a small number or percentage, isn't it ?

[1.5 million]

I said Ottomans punished those who were responsible of the death of Armenians.
Some weeks ago Gavur posted (I think again by Dadrian) the names of those punished by Ottomans and early Republican government.

Ottoman Military Court marshalls did convict some - however these trials were stopped before they were completed. Funny that most Turks make claims that this was not real justice but a sham. Anyway...As for Republican Gov't punishing anyone for killing Armenians....never happened. They coincidentally killed a nuber of ex CUP thugs after they had outlived their usefulness and because Ataturk feared that they might turn against him. This had nothing to do with justice for those who participated in the genocide of Armenians. How easy it is for you to lie and misrepresent things though.

[Gavur]

Genocide Deniers Will Be Punished With Law

ArmRadio.am
27.03.2006 17:45

Genocide deniers should be punished with law; this year the European
Armenian Federation will come forward with a new initiative. The
demonstration of Turks in the city of Lyon made the French be more
watchful.

It is known that the French law prohibits denying the fact of the
Armenian Genocide. The French, however, intend to enlarge the law to
punish all those who will make the fact of the Genocide a topic of
discussion or will deny it.

The necessity of this became apparent after the Turks organized a
rally denying the Armenian Genocide in Lyon. It was accompanied with
slogans denying the Genocide.

Furthermore, there is the necessity of a law that will become a serious
obstacle in Turkey's way to joining the European Union. In the recent
years there was an intention to execute a law against genocide in EU
member states; the development of the law was, however, hindered. The
European Armenian Federation Office intends to launch activities to
bring the law into force.

Germany is also working out a law to punish the Genocide deniers.

[Gavur]

Turkey Warns France Over Armenian Genocide Bill

AFP

Turkey warned France Wednesday that bilateral ties could suffer if the
French parliament adopts a bill that would criminalize any denial that
Armenians massacred during World War I were victims of genocide.

"In our meetings (with French officials), we stress that adoption of the
bill could lead to irreparable damage in long-standing Turkish-French
ties and that this should not be allowed," foreign ministry spokesman
Namik Tan told a press conference here.

Tan said Ankara is doing everything it can to block the bill, adding
that the French government is doing the same.

The bill, expected to be voted later this month, provides for one year's
imprisonment and a 45,000 euro (57,000 dollar) fine for denying that
Armenians were victims of genocide, according to Turkish press reports.
If adopted, it will follow a 2001 French decision that infuriated Turkey
by acknowledging that the mass killings in the dying days of the Ottoman
Empire amounted to genocide.

[Hovik]

AFP

Turkey warned France Wednesday that bilateral ties could suffer if the
French parliament adopts a bill that would criminalize any denial that
Armenians massacred during World War I were victims of genocide.

"In our meetings (with French officials), we stress that adoption of the
bill could lead to irreparable damage in long-standing Turkish-French
ties and that this should not be allowed," foreign ministry spokesman
Namik Tan told a press conference here.

Tan said Ankara is doing everything it can to block the bill, adding
that the French government is doing the same.

The bill, expected to be voted later this month, provides for one year's
imprisonment and a 45,000 euro (57,000 dollar) fine for denying that
Armenians were victims of genocide, according to Turkish press reports.
If adopted, it will follow a 2001 French decision that infuriated Turkey
by acknowledging that the mass killings in the dying days of the Ottoman
Empire amounted to genocide.

We know what happened last time Turkey threatened France on the AG

[TurQ]

The thing is Armenians are lucky on this cause they are in a very critical position with their 300,000 strong vote. It seems the head to head election race will
again happen in this upcoming elections. They declared already 2006(or 2007?) to be the year of Armenians in France.
So it's obvious where this is going. But Turkey has to warn anyways, but since 2001 France and Turkey grow very strong economic ties,
France especially is interested in investing in Turkey and thru TUrkey to central asia. They're already warned about economic complications
if that bill is passed. We'll see what'll happen.

We know what happened last time Turkey threatened France on the AG