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  • #51
    Originally posted by Joseph View Post
    I agree with 1.5. If Turkey was to fulfill all the requirements by the EU then they should be able to join but to be perfectly honest with you, the only reason I feel that way is because I doubt they will fulfill these requirements.
    The EU currently has enough problems. I don't see how adding Turkey or any new nations for that matter will help their agenda (whatever that agenda might be).
    My objection to turkey's accession to the EU is not based on turkey per se, but that the EU has become too large and cumbersome and , because of the general indifference to the EU from the bulk of the population in most states, the MEPs tend to be elected nearly by default, Euro elections have very small turnouts and this EU parliament is making policies with very wide-ranging implications. turkey, also any other new member states, would simply add to this,"democracy on it's a*s" situation.

    Comment


    • #52
      Originally posted by steph View Post
      My objection to turkey's accession to the EU is not based on turkey per se, but that the EU has become too large and cumbersome and , because of the general indifference to the EU from the bulk of the population in most states, the MEPs tend to be elected nearly by default, Euro elections have very small turnouts and this EU parliament is making policies with very wide-ranging implications. turkey, also any other new member states, would simply add to this,"democracy on it's a*s" situation.
      The horror! I now find myself agreeing with Steph on two occasions in the same day!"
      Plenipotentiary meow!

      Comment


      • #53
        Originally posted by Jade View Post
        I'm aware of the growing control of the military over Turkey. And I will not say that I'm happy about it - yet, suppose the military had given up it's large influence over the government, where would the government head? - in which direction? and would that direction be a positive one regarding Turkey's future? (of course "positive" would mean different things to everyone, for me "positive" means more secular and democratic) I think that what most "nationalistic" Turks fear is that without the influence of the military over the government, Turkey might end up something like Iran in the future. If they support the military, that is I believe is their main reason for doing so. For fear of AKP... But then again I might be hugely mistaken. I've yet to read more concerning this delicate issue and can only comment from what I've been gathering from here and there and using logic. So I look forward to what the members of this forum have to say regarding this issue...Open for opinions so to speak.
        And it is women in Turkey who will loose the most if an overtly Islamist party manages to take longterm control of Turkey.

        I've just watched a half-hour TV program about current Turkish politics that, as usual, mischaracterised the marches as being those of "nationalists". And, being made by a bunch of BBC journalists, "nationalist" is of course always presented as a negative thing.
        Its creators clearly couldn't be bothered to learn anything about events in Turkey beyond that simplified surface. But, given that the EU seems equally incapable, I suppose it is not surprising. Sometimes I think the EU liberal cabbage-heads would be more happy seeing Turkey became a repressive Islamic fundamentalist state than see a few generals speak out in public.
        Plenipotentiary meow!

        Comment


        • #54
          Originally Posted by Jade View Post
          I'm aware of the growing control of the military over Turkey. And I will not say that I'm happy about it - yet, suppose the military had given up it's large influence over the government, where would the government head? - in which direction? and would that direction be a positive one regarding Turkey's future? (of course "positive" would mean different things to everyone, for me "positive" means more secular and democratic) I think that what most "nationalistic" Turks fear is that without the influence of the military over the government, Turkey might end up something like Iran in the future. If they support the military, that is I believe is their main reason for doing so. For fear of AKP... But then again I might be hugely mistaken. I've yet to read more concerning this delicate issue and can only comment from what I've been gathering from here and there and using logic. So I look forward to what the members of this forum have to say regarding this issue...Open for opinions so to speak.
          Many of the leftist analysis will always state that Turkey moves around a circle, always experiencing the same problems, the same changes over and over again. The problem of identity, the problem of militaristic state, the problem of diminishing democracy and human rights. When facism or extereme nationalism (naturally) fails, in Turkey it is not left that fills the void but religion or to be more spesific, muslimhood. Islamist, nationalist, islamist, nationalist and so on and on. This circle of static interests and benefits kept Turkey the same in regards of social changes for decades.

          But left misses the fact that there are three dimensions for movement. Turkey does not move in a circle but rather a spiral. While growing economically and technically it experiences the same social problems and ossicilates between right wings of politics. This kind of movement is also part of the doctrine of pro-American politics which is born from cold war doctrine green-belt which was formed to stop the communist influence of Soviet Union within the context of Islamic brotherhood.

          At the axis z which is economy and military power we are growing. But at the axis x and y there is a circle or rather an elliptic circle where the radius can change as long as it does not touch the legitimatecy of Turkish state or army.

          The constant changing variables of x and y due to the nature of elliptic circle
          are within respect to each other when one reaches its peak the other gains momentum once again. Therefore the left side is left out in the cold and simply can not intervene with the politics and economy of the country.

          What does happen when the radius reaches the border of validity? Coup...

          As to where goverment would lead if army does not influence them? Simple, a light form of Islamic republic in Turkey. Advantages and disadvantages could be discussed but that is the road they would be taking.

          Why nationalist side supports army? One must look to Turkey's and Turk's past while analyzing the unwavering support for the army. Army has found Turkey. Army has freed Turkey. Army brought modernity and deterministic way of thinking to Turkey. Army enforced revolutions. We, Turks were an army before we were a people. We Turks were in ranks before we were in the fields working. Army is important for us, army is us.

          And then of course nationalism has a desire to become powerful or to be the piece of the powerful. One can also offer a symmetry of facism's fancy of power directly. But with us, relations with the army goes much deeper that that.

          Islamic threat is of course a serious cause of sympathy for Turkish army but is is hardly one.
          It is wrong to be French- Al Bundy

          Comment


          • #55
            A country where the "left' is terrorist,"right" is fascist (they must be facing south) ,it is no wonder people like to identify political leanings by saying they are left or right of center ,safe and a polite way?
            "All truth passes through three stages:
            First, it is ridiculed;
            Second, it is violently opposed; and
            Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

            Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

            Comment


            • #56
              An interesting an accurate view of the Armenian electorate dilema in Turkey.


              http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/

              MEHMET KAMIS [email protected]


              Who should Armenians vote for?

              Turkish Armenian Patriarch Mesrob Mutafyan told Germany-based Der Spiegel magazine he would vote for the Justice and Development Party (AK Party).
              His announcement sparked nationwide debate, and some circles and columnists upset by the announcement argued that Armenians should be aligned with the Republican People’s Party (CHP) and vote for them.
              Although it is unclear whether Mesrob II will really vote for the AK Party or was simply trying to avoid conflict with the leading party, it’s certain that his statement conflicted with some of the settled views in the country. According to these views, a Christian Armenian should support and vote for the pro-laicist CHP instead of the pro-religious AK Party. Islam is considered a rival to Christianity. Hence Christians or any other minority group should naturally be closer to a laicist party.

              But in reality, this view does not hold true in Turkey because laicism in our country does not allow religious freedom; especially the CHP’s understanding of laicism, which is identical to positivism.

              In Western democracies, people from different religious and ethnic groups usually support social democrats because these parties are less conservative and more respectful toward religious freedoms. Minority rights and freedom of religion is fundamental to them. They are strong advocates of freedoms, including religious freedom.

              In Turkey however, social democrats favor restrictions and limitations. They favor the republic more than democracy, but they don’t trust the leader of the republic too much. They believe the military can resolve all problems and perceive both minorities and majorities as potential threats to the nation.

              The CHP has embraced a Jacobin culture since they day of its founding. It is a party that imposes and determines. After a columnist suggested Armenians should vote for the CHP, they said “Turkey is a laicist state, a religious man should not interfere in politics,” and applied to a prosecutor’s office. History has no records of the CHP’s efforts to expand freedoms, democracy and human rights. Westernization for the CHP means laicism, which is the only concern of the CHP, and laicism for CHP means pushing religion out of social life, instead of incorporating it.

              The CHP is an anti-EU, anti-globalization, anti-development, anti-social values and anti-rights social democrat party. Throughout history conservative groups have never been disturbed by minority groups, and as for the attacks against non-Muslims in recent years, it is certain that the source behind them is different. A Muslim with a religious education knows they must protect the rights, life and possessions of different religious members living in their country.

              That said, why should any minority group in Turkey vote for the CHP?

              09.06.2007
              General Antranik (1865-1927): “I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.”

              Comment


              • #57
                Poland's view of their neighbours


                EU to Poland: don't mention the war
                Streg

                By Ingrid Melander
                BRUSSELS, June 21 (Reuters) - Don't mention the war.
                That was the message many European Union leaders had for
                Poland on Thursday as they arrived for a summit on the division
                of power in the 27-nation bloc.
                "The idea of basing today's decision on voting rights ... on
                World War Two is absurd," Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh
                Rasmussen told reporters.
                He was responding to remarks by Polish Prime Minister
                Jaroslaw Kaczynski, who said Poland deserved more voting power
                in the EU because its population had been decimated by Nazi
                Germany and would otherwise be much larger now than 38 million.
                "We are only demanding one thing, that we get back what was
                taken from us," Kaczynski said in a radio interview this week.
                "If Poland had not had to live through the years of 1939-45,
                Poland would be today looking at the demographics of a country
                of 66 million."

                Poland is isolated in asking to reopen the so-called double
                majority system in a proposed treaty to reform EU institutions.
                The system requires 55 percent of member states representing
                65 percent of the EU population to approve a decision. Warsaw
                says this gives too much power to big countries, especially
                Germany, largely at Warsaw's expense.
                Austrian Chancellor Alfred Gusenbauer said aloud what many
                EU leaders fear privately. He told a German newspaper he feared
                Poland's ruling Kaczynski twins were determined to deny German
                Chancellor Angela Merkel a success at the summit.
                Merkel has avoided responding to Poland's references to
                their tortured history.
                But Luxembourg Prime Minister Jean-Claude Juncker, close to
                the German leader, voiced the exasperation of many when he said:
                "Demography is demography. The bitter arguments on the Polish
                side are not acceptable."
                "Germany has never been a better neighbour to Poland than it
                is today, and all German chancellors since Helmut Kohl have done
                a lot for Poland," he told German daily Handelsblatt.

                CALLS TO LOOK AHEAD
                Berlin was the biggest supporter of Polish membership of the
                European Union, pressing for Warsaw to be included in the first
                wave of enlargement after the end of the Cold War when some
                Western European partners were far less enthusiastic.
                The leader of the Party of European Socialists, former
                Danish prime minister Poul Nyrup Rasmussen, urged the Poles to
                look forward and not dwell on history.
                "To all the Polish citizens, please think of the future and
                not of the past. Understand that we have more in common now than
                we have had ever," he told reporters.
                Poland's neighbours in central Europe, some of which share
                its history of having been invaded by Germany and then by the
                Soviet Union at the end of World War Two, said they hoped to
                persuade the Kaczynskis to overcome their resentments.
                "Poland right now is in dispute with Russia as well as
                Germany. That's nothing new if you know history," Czech Deputy
                Prime Minister Aleksandr Vondra said this week.
                "I think it's in our vital interest that Poland and Germany
                find a mutually acceptable way into the future."
                (Additional reporting by Jeff Mason, Axel Bugge and Yves
                Clarisse)
                ((writing by Paul Taylor, editing by Timothy Heritage; Reuters
                Messaging: [email protected]; +322 2876801))
                Keywords: EU TREATY/POLAND

                Comment


                • #58
                  http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/de...ay&link=115468

                  SI questions CHP's commitment to democracy
                  A committee of the Socialist International (SI), currently convening a council meeting in Geneva, proposed an investigation into Turkey's main opposition Republican People's Party's (CHP) commitment to democracy, a process that might result in eventual expulsion of the CHP from the world gathering of social democratic parties.


                  The Ethics Committee of the Socialist International decided at a meeting on Thursday to call for a report on "how the CHP acted when it comes to support for democracy," Anne Ludvigsson, a Swedish politician and Socialist International member told Today's Zaman in a phone interview. She said the committee's decision had been unanimous.

                  The Council of the Socialist International will discuss the call from the Ethics Committee today. If it gives the go-ahead for an investigation into the CHP's conduct, then a group of officials from the SI's secretariat will prepare a report.

                  That report will be assessed at the next meeting of the Council of the Socialist International. Whether the CHP should be expelled from the Socialist International will be made on the basis of this report.

                  Ludvigsson said she expected the council to back the Ethics Committee's call to report on the CHP's compliance with Socialist International norms, thus paving the way for an investigation.

                  The CHP has received much criticism from Socialist International members, who say its "nationalist rhetoric" is in violation of universal democratic standards. Ludvigsson said she was annoyed when the CHP took a supportive stance towards what appeared to be a military intervention in politics during Turkey's failed presidential election process.

                  The military issued a powerful statement hours after the first round of presidential election on April 27, expressing concern over secularism debates in the context of the election and warning of intervention. Earlier the same day the CHP took the election to the Constitutional Court, which cancelled it, saying in a controversial ruling that there should have been at least 367 deputies in attendance.

                  CHP leader Deniz Baykal, a vice president of the Socialist International, is attending the council meeting in Geneva. Asked whether he has been notified of the measure discussed at the Ethics Committee, Ludvigsson said it was very likely that he has been informed about Thursday's decision.

                  Baykal, Kurdish leaders spar over terrorism

                  Baykal, a harsh critic of the government for not adopting a sufficiently tough stance against Iraqi Kurdish leaders concerning the presence of the outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) in Iraq, was given a cold shower at the Socialist International meeting, where he had to share the same dinner table on Thursday night with both Iraqi President Jalal Talabani and Iraqi Kurdish leader Massoud Barzani, who heads the de facto autonomous Kurdish administration in northern Iraq.

                  In his speech at the council, Baykal accused Iraq of exporting terrorism and providing legitimacy for the PKK, following which Talabani walked out in protest. Baykal's speech was interrupted with noise inside the meeting hall when a huge crowd of journalists left their chairs to follow Talabani.

                  Earlier in the day, Baykal refused to listen to Talabani at seats reserved for senior officials of the Socialist International and took a chair among the audience in protest of the Iraqi leader, a Kurd. Baykal and Talabani both attended a dinner on Thursday night but there was no conversation between the two.

                  In his speech Baykal said the Iraqi administration had failed in "treating organizations that constitute a threat to neighbors as terrorists" and added that explosive materials smuggled from Iraq into Turkey have been used in several terrorist attacks inside Turkey.

                  Baykal also complained that what happened in northern Iraq, where the PKK terrorists enjoy freedom of movement, was unique in the world, complaining that the terrorists were trained there to attack Turkish targets, but that the Iraqi security forces were not doing anything to stop them.

                  Addressing the council before Baykal, Barzani noted that the Turkish military reinforced troops along the border and emphasized that the Iraqi Kurds pursued a policy of friendship. "We reject rhetoric of threat and embrace rhetoric of dialogue," he said.

                  Ironically, Barzani also touched on the threat of terrorism in his speech and said Iraq has turned into a training ground for terrorists worldwide. Talabani also said Iraq had been inundated with terrorists coming from Arabic countries ever since its liberation from Saddam Hussein's dictatorship, calling for help from the Socialist International.

                  Talabani refused to respond to questions from Turkish journalists.
                  General Antranik (1865-1927): “I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.”

                  Comment


                  • #59
                    Originally posted by Joseph View Post
                    http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/de...ay&link=115468

                    SI questions CHP's commitment to democracy
                    A committee of the Socialist International (SI), currently convening a council meeting in Geneva, proposed an investigation into Turkey's main opposition Republican People's Party's (CHP) commitment to democracy, a process that might result in eventual expulsion of the CHP from the world gathering of social democratic parties.


                    The Ethics Committee of the Socialist International decided at a meeting on Thursday to call for a report on "how the CHP acted when it comes to support for democracy," Anne Ludvigsson, a Swedish politician and Socialist International member told Today's Zaman in a phone interview. She said the committee's decision had been unanimous.

                    The Council of the Socialist International will discuss the call from the Ethics Committee today. If it gives the go-ahead for an investigation into the CHP's conduct, then a group of officials from the SI's secretariat will prepare a report.

                    That report will be assessed at the next meeting of the Council of the Socialist International. Whether the CHP should be expelled from the Socialist International will be made on the basis of this report.

                    Ludvigsson said she expected the council to back the Ethics Committee's call to report on the CHP's compliance with Socialist International norms, thus paving the way for an investigation.

                    The CHP has received much criticism from Socialist International members, who say its "nationalist rhetoric" is in violation of universal democratic standards. Ludvigsson said she was annoyed when the CHP took a supportive stance towards what appeared to be a military intervention in politics during Turkey's failed presidential election process.

                    The military issued a powerful statement hours after the first round of presidential election on April 27, expressing concern over secularism debates in the context of the election and warning of intervention. Earlier the same day the CHP took the election to the Constitutional Court, which cancelled it, saying in a controversial ruling that there should have been at least 367 deputies in attendance.

                    CHP leader Deniz Baykal, a vice president of the Socialist International, is attending the council meeting in Geneva. Asked whether he has been notified of the measure discussed at the Ethics Committee, Ludvigsson said it was very likely that he has been informed about Thursday's decision.

                    Baykal, Kurdish leaders spar over terrorism

                    Baykal, a harsh critic of the government for not adopting a sufficiently tough stance against Iraqi Kurdish leaders concerning the presence of the outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) in Iraq, was given a cold shower at the Socialist International meeting, where he had to share the same dinner table on Thursday night with both Iraqi President Jalal Talabani and Iraqi Kurdish leader Massoud Barzani, who heads the de facto autonomous Kurdish administration in northern Iraq.

                    In his speech at the council, Baykal accused Iraq of exporting terrorism and providing legitimacy for the PKK, following which Talabani walked out in protest. Baykal's speech was interrupted with noise inside the meeting hall when a huge crowd of journalists left their chairs to follow Talabani.

                    Earlier in the day, Baykal refused to listen to Talabani at seats reserved for senior officials of the Socialist International and took a chair among the audience in protest of the Iraqi leader, a Kurd. Baykal and Talabani both attended a dinner on Thursday night but there was no conversation between the two.

                    In his speech Baykal said the Iraqi administration had failed in "treating organizations that constitute a threat to neighbors as terrorists" and added that explosive materials smuggled from Iraq into Turkey have been used in several terrorist attacks inside Turkey.

                    Baykal also complained that what happened in northern Iraq, where the PKK terrorists enjoy freedom of movement, was unique in the world, complaining that the terrorists were trained there to attack Turkish targets, but that the Iraqi security forces were not doing anything to stop them.

                    Addressing the council before Baykal, Barzani noted that the Turkish military reinforced troops along the border and emphasized that the Iraqi Kurds pursued a policy of friendship. "We reject rhetoric of threat and embrace rhetoric of dialogue," he said.

                    Ironically, Barzani also touched on the threat of terrorism in his speech and said Iraq has turned into a training ground for terrorists worldwide. Talabani also said Iraq had been inundated with terrorists coming from Arabic countries ever since its liberation from Saddam Hussein's dictatorship, calling for help from the Socialist International.

                    Talabani refused to respond to questions from Turkish journalists.
                    Attempt to excommunicate CHP from Socialist International

                    Ethic committee of Socialist International took excommunication of CHP on its agenda upon the attempt of Swedish representative. The issue will be discussed at today's session.

                    Before the meeting of Socialist International starting in Geneva yesterday, Swedish member of Ethic Committee of the institution attempted to excommunicate CHP from Socialist International membership. Swedish member accused CHP of "not behaving like a socialist democratic party".

                    The committee unanimously resolved to gather proof regarding the accusations about CHP by the next meeting. Anne Ludvigsson, the chairman of Turkish Human Rights Monitoring Committee and Swedish deputy, said: "I am ashamed of calling CHP social democrat. I do not want to be at the same platform with a party with such perspective. A political party relying on army's power can not be social democrat. In democratic regimes, the elected govern the country."

                    Ludvigsson added: "such criticisms were made against CHP in the past, too; however, it is the first time this issue is handled so seriously at Socialist International."

                    Publish Date: 30.06.2007
                    Link: http://english.sabah.com.tr/9D9067D3...3A7D26A3D.html
                    General Antranik (1865-1927): “I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.”

                    Comment


                    • #60
                      Originally posted by steph View Post
                      He was responding to remarks by Polish Prime Minister
                      Jaroslaw Kaczynski, who said Poland deserved more voting power
                      in the EU because its population had been decimated by Nazi
                      Germany and would otherwise be much larger now than 38 million.
                      "We are only demanding one thing, that we get back what was
                      taken from us," Kaczynski said in a radio interview this week.
                      "If Poland had not had to live through the years of 1939-45,
                      Poland would be today looking at the demographics of a country
                      of 66 million."
                      And by the same standards, Britain's voting power should be at least 4 times bigger - since, if it weren't for those French-backed American terrorists back in the 1770s there would be at least another 300 million British citizens living in North America today!
                      Plenipotentiary meow!

                      Comment

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