Vive La France !!!!!

[lampron]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

Heh anytime someone lectures Armenians about "slave mentality" it turns my stomach. We are bad if we accept the Turkish rulers and we are bad if we rebel against it. .

The rebels were very few, maybe 200 in number. Out of 2 million. The problem was that the vast majority of Armenians didn't trust each other. That is another characteristic of slaves or ex-slaves

[Haykakan]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

There is still mistrust among Armenians. They have good reason to be this way because Armenians come from so many different parts of the world which means we have different values and norms. Even back then Armenians were spread out over a huge area and without modern transport they might as well have been worlds apart like we are now. I think the lack of centralization in all things Armenian has been and is still a big problem for us. The fact that Armenians do well for themselves and not so well together is the reason why we have fallen to our enemies and why we continue to struggle as a nation. The only way to treat this issue is to promote trust and closeness between the different groups of Armenians. By having our children visit Armenia and other Armenian population centers we can foster trust via interaction and communication.
As for slave mentality...i do believe Armenians in Cillicia not only rebelled but ruthlessly executed some Turks there. While the vast majority of Armenians had nothing to do with the rebels..there were indeed some rebels. Rebels aside, i think the fact that Armenians kept their identity and religion despite the high cost of doing so in a islamic empire ..speaks volumes about how we are not, were not, and will not be anything like slave mentality. Idiots accuse me of having this slave mentality because i support close ties for Armenia with Russia and i place a big value on physical security of a nation...if being rational, constructive, progressive...is equated with slave mentality then sure we Armenians will be happy to be labeled as such. Words are just that-words..they are cheap and meaningless much like Democracy, freedom, god ..words used to start wars and make people kill each other over these words which in reality do not even exist. Ask a kharabaghtsi about slave mentality, ask the fools in the opera square who were first to demand separation from the soviet union, ask the millions of Armenians who survive and thrive regardless of place, discrimination, oppression, being refugees... Sure Armenians do not work well together, sure we do not trust each other much, sure we do not help each other as much as we should..these are facts but labeling a people as cursed with slave mentality is not just incorrect-it is an insult that was never earned. People use the term slave way too loosely. Both blacks and Armenians were oppressed but one was a slave and the other never was. Blacks have overcome many grave injustices and so have we and we have much in common in this regard but Armenians were not slaves-it is an insult to the blacks to call us slaves because we do not know nor will we ever understand what slavery was really like..but they do.

[Artashes]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

Londontsi's post # 484 in the regional geopolitics is more accurate to discribe the untenable position of Armenians ?living? (existing) under turc rule.
For many centuries we lived amongst ourselves and actually thrived by keeping separate from the turc & kurd as much as possible. The tight knit communities express the opposite of the above assumtive nonsense posts.
Our greatest problem was living amongst the heartless murderes called turcs.
Nothing more.
We as a people's and community were in fact highly successful compared to the hybrid hominoids who call themselves turc.
The only way for them to satisfy their inferior capability to compete with the most industrious people in Anatolia was to murder them and steal all their belongings.
Even unto this very day both the kurd & turc are looking for the hidden wealth of the rich Armenians they murdered.
Honestly trying to live amongst the hominoids and thinking they would appreciate our decency and humanity toward them was the Armenians great mistake.
-------- NEVER AGAIN ---------
Artashes

[lampron]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

There is still mistrust among Armenians. They have good reason to be this way because Armenians come from so many different parts of the world which means we have different values and norms. Even back then Armenians were spread out over a huge area and without modern transport they might as well have been worlds apart like we are now. I think the lack of centralization in all things Armenian has been and is still a big problem for us. The fact that Armenians do well for themselves and not so well together is the reason why we have fallen to our enemies and why we continue to struggle as a nation. The only way to treat this issue is to promote trust and closeness between the different groups of Armenians. By having our children visit Armenia and other Armenian population centers we can foster trust via interaction and communication.
As for slave mentality...i do believe Armenians in Cillicia not only rebelled but ruthlessly executed some Turks there. While the vast majority of Armenians had nothing to do with the rebels..there were indeed some rebels. Rebels aside, i think the fact that Armenians kept their identity and religion despite the high cost of doing so in a islamic empire ..speaks volumes about how we are not, were not, and will not be anything like slave mentality. Idiots accuse me of having this slave mentality because i support close ties for Armenia with Russia and i place a big value on physical security of a nation...if being rational, constructive, progressive...is equated with slave mentality then sure we Armenians will be happy to be labeled as such. Words are just that-words..they are cheap and meaningless much like Democracy, freedom, god ..words used to start wars and make people kill each other over these words which in reality do not even exist. Ask a kharabaghtsi about slave mentality, ask the fools in the opera square who were first to demand separation from the soviet union, ask the millions of Armenians who survive and thrive regardless of place, discrimination, oppression, being refugees... Sure Armenians do not work well together, sure we do not trust each other much, sure we do not help each other as much as we should..these are facts but labeling a people as cursed with slave mentality is not just incorrect-it is an insult that was never earned. People use the term slave way too loosely. Both blacks and Armenians were oppressed but one was a slave and the other never was. Blacks have overcome many grave injustices and so have we and we have much in common in this regard but Armenians were not slaves-it is an insult to the blacks to call us slaves because we do not know nor will we ever understand what slavery was really like..but they do.

The Armenians who rebelled in Cilicia did so because there were French troops in the area. This is the point. Armenians cannot manage without the support (even psychological support) of an outside power because they have no self reliance

The million on the Opera square initially believed that Gorbachev supported Karabakh's independence. How many Armenians would have turned up if Gorbachev had stated from the start that he was against Karabakh joining Armenia?

Whether we like it or not, at present Armenia needs Russia, if Armenian mentality changes over time, there could be less reliance on an outside power.

The number of Armenian rebels in the Ottoman empire is exaggerated by Armenian political parties to make themselves look more important. The Ottomans also exaggerated the number of Armenian rebels in order to claim that they faced a threat

Yes Armenians survived the Ottomans, but only as a subject people without unity or direction, with ottomans as role models,and yes with the mentality of slaves. The Ottomans needed Armenians (and other non Moslems) for their empire and if they were too harsh, and Armenians and other Christians disappeared, they knew they would lose out

[Haykakan]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

The Armenians who rebelled in Cilicia did so because there were French troops in the area. This is the point. Armenians cannot manage without the support (even psychological support) of an outside power because they have no self reliance

The million on the Opera square initially believed that Gorbachev supported Karabakh's independence. How many Armenians would have turned up if Gorbachev had stated from the start that he was against Karabakh joining Armenia?

Whether we like it or not, at present Armenia needs Russia, if Armenian mentality changes over time, there could be less reliance on an outside power.

The number of Armenian rebels in the Ottoman empire is exaggerated by Armenian political parties to make themselves look more important. The Ottomans also exaggerated the number of Armenian rebels in order to claim that they faced a threat

Yes Armenians survived the Ottomans, but only as a subject people without unity or direction, with ottomans as role models,and yes with the mentality of slaves. The Ottomans needed Armenians (and other non Moslems) for their empire and if they were too harsh, and Armenians and other Christians disappeared, they knew they would lose out

You attribute too much to mentality. I do believe mentality can make a difference some times but the situations faced by Armenians were far beyond anything in the scope of mentality to deal with. Hard facts on the ground do not change just because you change your mind. I am one of those who blames my own people for lacking unity and not helping each other but i have my doubts if even unity would have spared us from our dark fate. Being on the highway of imperial struggles for world domination seems to me our biggest obstacle. Our problems started long before the Turk set foot on Anatolia (including whatever mentality issues) and it is hard to build and create and feel confident in your abilities and future when you are constantly being run over by one empire after another. xxxs suffer from mental issues far more then us and because of similar reasons but to their credit they have learned to help each other and this still eludes the average Armenian. In my opinion the mental issues you speak of are symptoms not the disease.

[Eddo211]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

Too much "loyalty" or to be proud of being "loyal", these are signs of a slave mentality

You don't get it....Armenian lived on their own lands, empires come and go.....we had we will win at the end mentality.

Turks are the one who are slaved to their collective and their faith God Ataturd.

Question:

What about Armenians who don't care for each other even in the middle of a catastrophe?

We discussed above about the massacre of 5,000 Armenians in 1895 triggered by a meaningless bank takeover. One political party has celebrated this episode as a victory ever since

and rival political parties mention it when convenient but in reality they don't care about the victims either!

Answer:

]People always have the choice of not being like slaves. It requires co-operation and the price of the struggle may be high, but the rewards are also high

You know most of your countrymen would cut your throat for your liberal views on Armenians.....know this, the only thing left that Turks can get from Armenians is revenge.

[Artashes]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

You don't get it....Armenian lived on their own lands, empires come and go.....we had we will win at the end mentality.

Turks are the one who are slaved to their collective and their faith God Ataturd.

Question:


Answer:


You know most of your countrymen would cut your throat for your liberal views on Armenians.....know this, the only thing left that Turks can get from Armenians is revenge.

Please don't forget CONTEMT and HATRED.

[Eddo211]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

Please don't forget CONTEMT and HATRED.

I don't hate all Turks......just the B0zkurts (90 percent of the Turks).......guys like Lampron are OK. Younger Turks wannabe wolf I try to change but mostly no success, The collective is strong and the main weapon of Turks forced slaved but believing its the only way. A Turk has no friend but a Turk is no joke, they mean it.

With that said we have unfinished business with the Turks.

[Haykakan]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

AFTER THE GENOCIDE, A MARKET FOR ARMENIAN BONES?

Worldcrunch
March 27 2014

A Turkish writer tries to piece together a particular episode that
offers a grisly European postscript to the slaugther of the Armenians
last century.

Baskin Oran (2014-03-27)

Manuel Kirkyasaryan, an Armenian from the southern Turkish city of
Adana, had recorded his memories to tape before dying in Sydney in
1997. His son Stepan recently found the last tape he recorded before
his death. We are adding it to the 5th edition of my book M.K. Adlı
Cocugun Tehcir Anilari ("The Deportation Memories of the Child named
M.K."). One particular episode required further research, which I
first present from the original recording:

"And we said: this is the desert of Deir ez-Zor; there is more to it.

We are going on for now. It was the year 1925. The time is summer. I
was at the workshop of the garage of the Topcuyans in Aleppo where
I worked.

One day a large automobile came to the garage; loaded. There were
some things loaded on the top of it with sacks [stacked] high. I said,
'That is a big load. Is it not heavy?' And they told me: 'No, it is not
heavy; it is light. It looks like a lot, but it is light.' I asked:
'What is inside the sacks?' They told me: 'There was a time when the
Armenian migrants went to the deserts of Deir ez-Zor; I mean they took
them and killed them [there]. Their bones are what is inside.' I said:
'What will they do with this?' They told me: 'A company came from
Europe. They will gather these bones and take them to the port of
Iskenderun and send to Europe by ship.'

I asked: 'What will they do?' They said: 'We do not know that part.'
They would probably use them for something. I came across scenes
like this twice. There, the Europeans used the Armenians as tools;
they were even taking their lives and bones for their interest."

Looking further

This is such a horrifying event that I could not believe it. I thought
maybe they made a joke to the young Kirkyasaryan. However, he says
he saw this twice. And we do know that bare bones are actually large
in mass but light in weight.

Then I was shocked by a message by the devrimcikaradeniz.com website,
where details of the same event were written. It was a summary of the
book written by historian Vlassis Agtzidis that used Greek, American
and French sources and newspapers.

It tells of a ship that sailed December 13, 1924 from the Turkish
port of Mudanya to Marseille, France via Thessaloniki, Greece. There
are no documents onboard about the cargo, but the porters discover
this mysterious load is human bones.

This can be considered normal; things are chaotic in Greece which
just experienced the "Asia Minor Catastrophe" and accepted migrants
as large as a fraction of its population in addition. The people who
ordered the load from Marseille must have intervened.

A story is published in the December 23, 1924 edition of the New York
Times with a Paris dateline that tells of a British registered ship
named Zan that arrived in the port of Marseille, carrying 400 tons
of human bones, suspected of being the remains of those "killed in
the Asia Minor massacres." There were reports that an investigation
would be opened.

The same details are described in the Midi daily's December 24, 1924
edition, this time with a Marseille dateline: "These bones are coming
from the Armenian killing fields in Turkey and Asia Minor."

Neither article was printed on the front page of the newspapers -
though we must remember that Europeans then may have been inured to
massacres in the aftermath of World War I. But the facts reported
fit in with the recording of Kirkyasaryan's testimony in the 1970's:
the same years and tons of human bones that must have come from
mass graves.

Who sold and bought the bones? And why?

What would the British and French industrialists who imported this
"product" do with it? I consulted a medical professor who said bones
were used to produce glue, gelatin glass frames and, excuse me,
animal feed (using bones for animal feed is banned by the European
Union after the spread of mad cow disease). The bones would be a
pretty cheap "raw material."

So, who is the exporter? The title of the devrimcikaradeniz.com is very
problematic: "How the Kemalists Sold 50,000 Human Bones to the French?"

It is not possible that the Kemalists (the Committee of Union and
Progress members) took part in this. It is possible that they would
want the bones out of their sight because it would relieve their
consciences, but exporting Greek bones would mean announcing the
massacres of 1913-16 to the West more clearly than before. Moreover,
who could find a Muslim exporter in 1924?

The story cites French and British soap firms as the buyers. However,
according to my friend, the production of soap is made by fresh bones
and its supplements (meat, fat, intestines, etc) from slaughterhouses;
not from dry bones dug from the ground.

Excuse this focus on such a filthy matter. The "producers" of these
bones are the members of the Committee of Union and Progress of
course. But what's new in this story is the "merchants," and they are
the same ones cited in Manuel Kirkyasaryan's first-hand testimony:
"There, the Europeans used the Armenians as tools; they were even
taking their lives and bones for their interest."

http://www.worldcrunch.com/world-affairs/after-the-genocide-a-market-for-armenian-bones-/deportation-massacre-remains-history-kemal/c1s15372/#.UzSkFsaKDIU

[Mher]

Re: Vive La France !!!!!

Emails Reveal Ankara Colluded with French Judge to Defeat Genocide Denial Measure

PARIS—Documents recently published by Nouvelles d’Armenie magazine reveal a collusion between a member of the French Constitutional Council and a former Turkish foreign minister at the time the highest judicial body in France was discussing the law criminalizing the denial of the Armenian Genocide.

In December of the 2011, both houses of the French parliament approved a measuring, which would criminalize the denial of the Armenian Genocide in France through prison terms and fines. The bill was then referred to the French Constitutional Council, the country’s highest judicial body, which deemed the measure unconstitutional. The criminalization of Genocide denial was supported by then president Nicolas Sarkozy, as well as the current French President Francois Hollande, who at the time was vying for the presidency.

In the most recent issue of Nouvelle d’Armenie an article entitled, “Constitutional Council: The dangerous connections of Hubert Haenel,” reveals email communications between Haenel, a former French Senator and 2010 appointee to the Constitutional Council with a former Turkish foreign minister turned Turkish lobbyist Yasar Yakis, in which the latter expresses his contentment that the Genocide criminalization measure was now on Haenel’s desk, who would be influential to overturn the measure, which was sponsored by French Senator Valerie Boyer.


The exchange between the court member, who is also a member of a pro-Turkish group known as the Bosphorus Institute, and the Turkish official were part of a Yahoo discussion thread.

The first of the exchanges took place on February 1, 2012 when Yakis writes to Haenel: “My dear and great friend, [...] I could not help but share my joy with great friends of Turkey. I think this tide has turned and the case is now in your good hands.”

Later that same day, Haenel responds to Yakis: “Like you, I share this relief. We have 30 days to decide, the die has been cast.”


The most egregious email communications took place on February 28, 2012 when Haenel writes to Yakis saying, Haenel wrote Yakis: “The decision of the Constitutional Council will be public today at 5 p.m. You will be satisfied,” to which Yakis reponds: “Since it’s you who are telling me, I don’t think I’ll be disappointed.”

CCAF Demands Haenel’s Resignation
The Coordinating Council of Armenian Organizations in France (CCAF) issued an announcement condemning the exchange and calling for Haenel’s resignation for his own failure to act within the parameters of the French Constitution.

“This correspondence reveals a complicity that borders on collusion between the high-ranking official of the [French] Republic and the representative of a foreign state about the ‘Boyer law,’ legislation passed by the National Assembly and Senate and invalidated by the Constitutional Council,” the CCAF said in its statement.

“The CCAF denounces the pressure being place on a top French Magistrate by the President of the France-Turkey Parliamentary Group in Ankara. The organization is also outraged by the attention that was given him by Mr. Haenel, who in two separate messages on the one hands tries to reassure him about the fate of this law, and also informes him about the Constitutional Council decision prior to its announcement. This goes counter to the provision of confidentiality, discretion and impartiality that is stipulated in Article 3 [of the French judicial law] as approved on Nov. 7, 1958,” explained the CCAF announcement.

The CCAF also called on the authorities of France to open an investigation into the matter and called for Haenel’s resignation from the bench.

http://asbarez.com/130489/emails-reveal-ankara-colluded-with-french-judge-to-defeat-genocide-denial-measure/