Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

[Artashes]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

Not everything that can be counted counts
Not everything that counts can be counted
Albert Einstein

[hrai]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

I clearly no nothing about a mountain I saw from my window every morning ---
Man you are killing me. (big smile from last frontier)
Artashes

Big smile back, frontiersman !

Hope you're starting to beat the computer. (I ask my daughter for help on IT smart-phones etc. nearly every day)

[Haykakan]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

I did a research paper regarding the opening of borders between Turky and Armenia and economicaly speaking there is no doubt both sides would greatly benefit from trade with Armenia benefiting considerably more. Economics is important and you have to remember it is not Armenia that closed the border. Opening the border with Turky would bring many opportunities to armenian businesses and jobs to the armenian people but it is the turk that places unreasonable demands on opening the border-not us. The Armenian government and most of the people in Armenia want the border opened because they know it will improve the country and their lives. As is the case with many of the problems regarding the relationship between Armenia and Turky-it is Turky that caused the problem and continues to refuse to fix it. The two nations have a lot of problems with one another but a economic relationship may be the first step to adressing these problems as neighbors instead of enemies. Awareness of the Armenian issues is gaining ground in Turky today and a open border will facilitate it further and this i think is one of the reasons Turky refuses to open the border. Opening the border brings many opportunities for bothsides but particularly for Armenia. Sure there are things we need to watch out for so that we are not economicaly taken advantage of but there are tools we can use to avoid such problems as they arise. Opening of the border should be done in stages so that both sides can build trust on this issue and build on it. This would also minimize the potential for abuse. The tools are there and the will is also there on the armenian side but it is the turkish side that is not cooporating.

[Artashes]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

Yes I understand the economic benefit to be gained by opening the border. That is not the only way for economic stimulus but rather one(1) apparent way and a relatively easy and fast way. The benefit would be felt almost emmediatly by the "average" person but more benefit to the individual manipulator.
I have many problems and questions still. Not clear in my brain as I just woke up but here goes.
Someone murders a number of people in your family and their are many witnesses both inside and outside your family. The murderer denies the obvious --- have to go---

[Artashes]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

Yes I understand the economic benefit to be gained by opening the border. That is not the only way for economic stimulus but rather one(1) apparent way and a relatively easy and fast way. The benefit would be felt almost emmediatly by the "average" person but more benefit to the individual manipulator.
I have many problems and questions still. Not clear in my brain as I just woke up but here goes.
Someone murders a number of people in your family and their are many witnesses both inside and outside your family. The murderer denies the obvious --- have to go---

The murdering lier then offers to share the highly desirable stolen weath with those outside you're family and then says to you that you should deal with him in a normal fashion and by doing this our difference of opinion on said "alleged murder can be addressed( sooner or later).
If this is done in my opinion we(Hay) are actually helping to legitimize the murderers position.
Also another story --- I the early days of electrical use in the USA everyone produced their own electricity. In my opinion the way the manipulators stole the sef sufficient ability from the individual was--- damn -- have go ---

[Artashes]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

The murdering lier then offers to share the highly desirable stolen weath with those outside you're family and then says to you that you should deal with him in a normal fashion and by doing this our difference of opinion on said "alleged murder can be addressed( sooner or later).
If this is done in my opinion we(Hay) are actually helping to legitimize the murderers position.
Also another story --- I the early days of electrical use in the USA everyone produced their own electricity. In my opinion the way the manipulators stole the sef sufficient ability from the individual was--- damn -- have go ---

The electrical grid. They then made universal use of electrical grid so cheap that every one jumped on the band wagon.
That stopped dead in its tracks the individual from progressing and refining and accumulating a technology and ability to manage their own affairs. After regular joe is hooked the electric prices skyrocket and ordinary person is excluded from pursuing self sufficiency(needs deep pockets/no options without big bucks). INCIDIOUS.
When you look at various economic lines of thought the basic ,pervasive fraud is not put into the model. In an equation if you leave out even one facto the equation comes out wrong.
I know I've struggled attempting to make these points. Do you see what I'm saying?
Artashes

[davidoga]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

@Artashes:

You are pretending that the current effort to recognize the Armenian Genocide is working. This is simply no the case, because if Turkey does not acknowledge then nothing else matters.

That is what I was trying to say all this time: That opening the border facilitates Genocide recognition. The current issue is not lack of evidence; the Turkish government is perfectly aware of the truth. It is a lack of motivation to acknowledge the truth. Nobody is forcing turkey to recognize the Genocide, so why should it?

They only way is through amicable terms. They will be able to see the truth more clearly once Armenia is no longer regarded as an enemy state.

[Artashes]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

@Artashes:

You are pretending that the current effort to recognize the Armenian Genocide is working. This is simply no the case, because if Turkey does not acknowledge then nothing else matters.

That is what I was trying to say all this time: That opening the border facilitates Genocide recognition. The current issue is not lack of evidence; the Turkish government is perfectly aware of the truth. It is a lack of motivation to acknowledge the truth. Nobody is forcing turkey to recognize the Genocide, so why should it?

They only way is through amicable terms. They will be able to see the truth more clearly once Armenia is no longer regarded as an enemy state.

As your sentence in your reply to me -- you( me - Artashes -) : are pretending that the current effort to recognize AG is working. That is WRONG. How did you come up with that from any of my posts?
For the record here is what I (Artashes) think about the AG recognition effort: however ineffective issue still exists but has not goal yet.
This assumption of yours about myself and/or what I have written about in these posts as your 1st sentence is for why?
You say: opening the border facilitates AG recognition as if I did not get that from your previous posts -- ----- wrong --- I clearly got that.
I am stating opening up the border is the opposite of facilitating AG recognition .
We are diametrically opposed on that.
When you say: the -- only -- way and underline -- only -- I again strongly disagree with you on that.
Neither did you address any of the points I made in ernest that I thought had merit and relavince. --?
Artashes

[davidoga]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

As your sentence in your reply to me -- you( me - Artashes -) : are pretending that the current effort to recognize AG is working. That is WRONG. How did you come up with that from any of my posts?
For the record here is what I (Artashes) think about the AG recognition effort: however ineffective issue still exists but has not goal yet.
This assumption of yours about myself and/or what I have written about in these posts as your 1st sentence is for why?
You say: opening the border facilitates AG recognition as if I did not get that from your previous posts -- ----- wrong --- I clearly got that.
I am stating opening up the border is the opposite of facilitating AG recognition .
We are diametrically opposed on that.
When you say: the -- only -- way and underline -- only -- I again strongly disagree with you on that.
Neither did you address any of the points I made in ernest that I thought had merit and relavince. --?
Artashes

You are saying that rapprochement with Turkey will undermine efforts of Genocide recognition. Well, in terms of convincing Turkey, how can they get any worse?

If you plan to criticize my idea, then what do you propose? I don't see you coming up with anything. You have yet to explain to me why opening borders is a bad thing, (other than nonsensical reasons such as that it would mean Armenia condones Turkish denial or that trade WOULD NOT be beneficial for Armenia).

Do you, at the very least, agree that antagonism will get Armenia nowhere?

I don't understand the other points you are making.

[Artashes]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

You are saying that rapprochement with Turkey will undermine efforts of Genocide recognition. Well, in terms of convincing Turkey, how can they get any worse?

If you plan to criticize my idea, then what do you propose? I don't see you coming up with anything. You have yet to explain to me why opening borders is a bad thing, (other than nonsensical reasons such as that it would mean Armenia condones Turkish denial or that trade WOULD NOT be beneficial for Armenia).

Do you, at the very least, agree that antagonism will get Armenia nowhere?

I don't understand the other points you are making.

How can they get any worse --- WAR ---
What do I propose --- keep the border closed ---
I and others have expressed why opening borders is wrong move.
Your accusation f me as nonsensical is unappreciated. Please try expressing yourself without personal insults
Armenia is --- not --- antagonizing those who perpetuate the --- GENOCIDE ---.
Your last sentence does not surprise me
Artashes