Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

[davidoga]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

How can they get any worse --- WAR ---
What do I propose --- keep the border closed ---
I and others have expressed why opening borders is wrong move.
Your accusation f me as nonsensical is unappreciated. Please try expressing yourself without personal insults
Armenia is --- not --- antagonizing those who perpetuate the --- GENOCIDE ---.
Your last sentence does not surprise me
Artashes

This is what I'm talking about. What your saying makes sense in theory, but has no connection to reality. Why on earth would Turkey invade Armenia? Let's, for a second, forget that Russia guarantees Armenia's security and that Turkey would not be destroyed in the Russian counterattack. Armenia is showing no openly hostile attitude towards Turkey's security, and vice versa (not talking about Genocide). What would be the grounds for a conflict?

Also, Turkey will not go to war with Armenia for the sake of Azerbaijan. It cares about its NATO membership too much.

Keep the border close?!?!?!?!?!?! Why?!?!?!?! Are you aware that there is gigantic net-migration from Armenia. Are you aware that, in a recent Armenian study, 40% of Armenian residents said that they would leave the country if they could? How can you possibly turn your back on an opportunity to expand the economy and, quite frankly, save the country? It feels like you are talking from the perspective of an oligarch that has no concern for the ordinary Armenian.

Saying that trade is not mutually beneficial is nonsensical. Saying that Armenia will agree with Turkish denialism if borders are opened is also nonsensical. The current Armenian government is pursuing unconditional establishment of relations with Turkey. According to you, does this mean that they will forget about Armenian Genocide soon thereafter? "If this is done in my opinion we(Hay) are actually helping to legitimize the murderers position," - what you are saying makes no sense.

I'm not saying it is antagonizing, I'm saying it won't get anywhere with the current attitude. Genocide recognition cannot be forced onto Turkey.

[hrai]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

Anyone who believes that opening the false border with turcey would be beneficial to Armenia should perhaps look at the effects on georgian economy.

Georgia is infested with turcs in all strata of trade and business, the majority of profits from these businesses are plowed straight back into turcey (that's the purpose of turc investment after all).

Armenia should maintain and strengthen ties with Iran and Russia as opposed to considering turcey. My personal thoughts are that proponents of opening the border are mainly from the Diaspora who have been influenced by the pervasive turcish propaganda. Armenia may struggle but I would prefer struggle to annihilation, be that annihilation through military or economic means. People, for the first time in centuries part of Armenia is muslim/turc/baboon-free, you now want to facilitate their return? Look to yourselves.

In the 21st century there are very few closed borders anywhere in the world, yet turcey has 2 (I include Cyprus) whilst criss-crossing another 3 borders with it's military.............50% of turcey's borders are areas of conflict.......................................... ....

(I must also say that this question has no relation to Genocide Recognition, I believe turcs will never recognise AG but my hope is that Genocide Recognition efforts are centred on increasing the number of countries from the present 20+ who officially recognise. Concerted efforts should be made on the half dozen US states, once all 50 states recognise pressure must increase on the federal government. Other regional governments in Spain and UK and elsewhere have recognised and again work should be centred on those states.)

[davidoga]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

@hrai

You make a good point. Armenia's status as a nation state should not be diluted. At the same time, you don't propose for the Turk+Azeri borders to be closed forever, do you?

Georgia is a special case because it is a pushover. I am assuming that you are referring to Adjara, that is now Turk majority. I am sure that the Armenian government can take some procedures to keep Turksout.

The Armenian government, and most Armenian citizens I suppose, favor opening the border and expanding the economy.

If you acknowledge the Turks will never recognize the Genocide, then why do you care about the rest of the world? Why does it matter?

By the way, I don't believe that the Genocide will never be recognized. There are undeniable trends in Turkish society that go in positive direction. Eventually, they will have a government with significantly less @ssholes than AKP.

After all, it is the truth. Once the stigma around Armenians in the Turkish government fades, recognition should naturally follow.

[hrai]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

@hrai

You make a good point. Armenia's status as a nation state should not be diluted. At the same time, you don't propose for the Turk+Azeri borders to be closed forever, do you?

Georgia is a special case because it is a pushover. I am assuming that you are referring to Adjara, that is now Turk majority. I am sure that the Armenian government can take some procedures to keep Turksout.

The Armenian government, and most Armenian citizens I suppose, favor opening the border and expanding the economy.

If you acknowledge the Turks will never recognize the Genocide, then why do you care about the rest of the world? Why does it matter?

By the way, I don't believe that the Genocide will never be recognized. There are undeniable trends in Turkish society that go in positive direction. Eventually, they will have a government with significantly less @ssholes than AKP.

After all, it is the truth. Once the stigma around Armenians in the Turkish government fades, recognition should naturally follow.

David, you suppose most citizens favor opening the border and I suppose the opposite , neither of us know for sure,

Regards my wanting the rest of the world to officially recognise AG ? If a guy walks his dog down the street and the dog takes a crap, people tell him "hey, your dog just did a crap on the street." He'll probably say "Sorry, I'll clean it up". If you see a dog on it's own, walking the street and taking a dump, if you say to the dog "hey dog, you just dumped a crap on the street" then the dog just barks at you. That's pretty much what I see from turcs, barking at people.

Oh, and regards azeri/turc borders being closed forever....................one day the artificial zoological garden of azerbaboonia will not exist and we'll then have a border with Russia and the border with turcey which could be opened is nowhere near the false border we have now.

[Artashes]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

David, you suppose most citizens favor opening the border and I suppose the opposite , neither of us know for sure,

Regards my wanting the rest of the world to officially recognise AG ? If a guy walks his dog down the street and the dog takes a crap, people tell him "hey, your dog just did a crap on the street." He'll probably say "Sorry, I'll clean it up". If you see a dog on it's own, walking the street and taking a dump, if you say to the dog "hey dog, you just dumped a crap on the street" then the dog just barks at you. That's pretty much what I see from turcs, barking at people.

Oh, and regards azeri/turc borders being closed forever....................one day the artificial zoological garden of azerbaboonia will not exist and we'll then have a border with Russia and the border with turcey which could be opened is nowhere near the false border we have now.

The last 13 words in this paragraph help stave off loneliness. Thanks
Artashes

[davidoga]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

Oh, and regards azeri/turc borders being closed forever....................one day the artificial zoological garden of azerbaboonia will not exist and we'll then have a border with Russia and the border with turcey which could be opened is nowhere near the false border we have now.

I have hopes for a border with Russia as well, although through Georgia. That way, the newly encompassed population will be Christian and we do not have to worry about Georgia being non-compliant. Also, I think having a Black Sea border is better than a Caspian Sea border because the latter will inevitably put us at odds with Russian and maybe Iranian energy interests, which is not something that Armenia needs.

[hrai]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

I have hopes for a border with Russia as well, although through Georgia. That way, the newly encompassed population will be Christian and we do not have to worry about Georgia being non-compliant. Also, I think having a Black Sea border is better than a Caspian Sea border because the latter will inevitably put us at odds with Russian and maybe Iranian energy interests, which is not something that Armenia needs.

I meant Russian border would move south to us, I can't see our border on Caspian either. Honestly, I can't see a coastal region for Armenia so we should hope for a Russian border and a bigger border with Iran from a reclaimed Nakhichevan.

[Haykakan]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

RUSSIA TO BUILD NUCLEAR PLANT ON THE OTHER SIDE OF ARARAT
Naira Hayrumyan

Story from Lragir.am News:

http://www.lragir.am/index.php/eng/0/politics/view/28287

14:49 04/12/2012

Russia agreed with Turkey on the provision of USD 20 billion for
the construction of the Akkuyu Nuclear Power Plant. Vladimir Putin
announced about this in Turkey after his meeting with Erdogan.

"I would like to stress that the investment is very big - USD 20
billion - it is totally assumed by the Russian party, we will fund the
project fully", said Putin. He noted that more than hundred Turkish
students are trained in relevant specialties in this field in Russia.

It is noteworthy that Russia actually blocked the construction of
the Armenian Nuclear Power Plant apparently upon the request of Turkey.

Officially, Russia, of course, agreed to fund the 25% /USD 5 billion/
of the total sum required for the construction of the Armenian NPP,
but Moscow insists that the reactor of the Plant is Russian, while
the Western investors affirm the reactor can't be Russia and the rest,
say, French. At the same time, Russia does not reject participation,
actually, blocking the construction.

Now, it will build the Nuclear Plant in Turkey, after the Bushehr
Nuclear Power Plant in Iran. Experts discussed more than once why
Turkey or many other developed countries don't have the NPP, why the
West does not finance nuclear energy and creates obstacles for Russia
to build the NPP in Iran. Apparently, there is an unvoiced agreement
not to build NPPs in countries considered unreliable, where there is
the threat of Islamic radicalism. Turkey is among these countries.

Now sure, the nuclear weapon of NATO is in Turkey, but Turks don't
have access to it, just like to the NATO intelligence. The NPP will
allow Turkey make part of the nuclear super powers. If they manage
to torpedo the Armenian NPP, Russia can be proud of having made a
fraternal service to Turkey.

[Haykakan]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

ISRAEL SUPPLYING ADVANCED WEAPONRY TO TURKEY

Military deal, the fulfillment of an order that was halted after
the Mavi Marmara incident, is first of its kind since 2010 By MICHAL
SHMULOVICH February 18, 2013, 5:56 pm 5

A Turkish F-16. (photo credit: CC BY Ronnie Macdonald, Flickr)

ISRAEL-TURKEY RELATIONSWEAPONSMAVI MARMARA

Israel is providing advanced electronic warfare systems for aircraft
to Turkey, a fulfillment of an earlier order that was put on hold in
the wake of the infamous Mavi Marmara incident in 2010. It is the
first instance of a military equipment exchange between Jerusalem
and Ankara since then.

Turkey's Today's Zaman reported the sale, which will significantly beef
up Anakara's intelligence capabilities, on Sunday, and the aircraft
upgrade was confirmed by senior Israeli sources Monday. A source
said the deal was approved due to US pressure and Israel's desire
to restore its damaged relationship with Turkey, amid escalating
tension between Ankara and Tehran Iran over the Syrian conflict,
according to the Hebrew daily Haaretz.

The Syrian civil war has posed additional security challenges for
Turkey. In October 2012, five Turkish civilians were killed by Syrian
fire, sparking fears that Ankara would be dragged into the regional
conflict. Turkey vowed to respond harshly, and it deployed extra jets
to its border with Syria in the weeks after the incident.

Turkish soldiers patrol a military station at the border crossing
with Syria in Akcakale, across from the Syrian rebel-controlled town
of Tel Abyad in October. (photo credit: AP)

The electronic systems are to be integrated into the Turkish Air
Force's Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) military aircraft
that were purchased from the US in the early 2000s. The system enables
the planes to protect themselves from electronic attacks that target
its controls during flight, Today's Zaman reported.

In 2002, Boeing won a $200 million contract to supply Turkey with
the four AWACS aircraft - and a $25 million contract to integrate
electronic warning systems into the four planes was then won by ELTA,
a subsidiary of Israel Aerospace Industries. Boeing supplied the planes
to Turkey three years ago. Israel's fulfillment of the order, however,
was halted after it delivered two of the electronic systems in 2011,
in the wake of the Mavi Marmara raid.

News about the weapons deal comes less than three months after media
reports surfaced that Ankara and Jerusalem were engaging in secret
back-channel reconciliation talks despite heightened tensions over
Operation Pillar of Defense. Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu
confirmed that the two countries were trying to find ways to end
their diplomatic impasse.

Relations between former close allies Turkey and Israel soured after
nine pro-Palestinian activists - eight Turks and a Turkish-American
- were killed aboard the Mavi Marmara vessel, which was part of an
international flotilla trying to break the Gaza blockade, on May 31,
2010. Israeli naval commandos commandeered the vessel and were attacked
by activists.

Turkey has demanded a formal apology, compensation for victims and
the families of the dead, and for the Gaza blockade to be lifted.

Israel has resisted Turkish demands to apologize for the raid on the
ship and to compensate those killed as a precondition for normalizing
relations. Israel - stressing that its solders were attacked with clubs
and poles by violent thugs aboard the vessel, and insisting that its
blockade against Gaza, which is run by the terror group Hamas, is legal
- has said it "regrets" the loss of life, rather than issuing a full
apology, and has offered to pay into what it called a "humanitarian
fund" through which casualties and relatives could be compensated.

Turkey disputes Israeli assertions that its soldiers acted in
self-defense. The commando operation sparked worldwide condemnation
and led to an easing of Israel's blockade on the the Gaza Strip.

A UN report on the Mavi Marmara incident released in 2011 concluded
that Israel had used unreasonable force in stopping the ship, but
that the blockade on Gaza was legal.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-supplying-advanced-weaponry-to-turkey/

[londontsi]

Re: Do you think Turkey has become a regional Leader?

.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-fails-in-new-effort-to-mend-ties-with-turkey/

Israel fails in new effort to mend ties with Turkey
February 23, 2013, 9:45 pm

Netanyahu’s security adviser held talks with Ankara’s Foreign Ministry director in Rome three weeks ago, to no avail

An Israeli-initiated effort to heal ties with Turkey, which saw Israeli officials meet their Turkish counterparts in Rome three weeks ago, ended in failure.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s national security adviser, Yaakov Amidror, accompanied by former Foreign Ministry director general Joseph Ciechanover, held talks in the Italian capital with Turkish Foreign Ministry Director Feridun Sinirlioğlu, to try to formulate terms for easing the rift between the two countries that has strained relations over the past three years.

But the contacts did not produce a breakthrough, Channel 2 reported Saturday night, and the Israelis came home empty handed.

Hatnua leader Tzipi Livni made her own effort to ease the strains by seeking a meeting in New York late last year with Turkey’s Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu, but he refused to see her, the news report said.

It added that Israel is feeling the pressure to mend the rift ahead of US President Barack Obama’s visit here next month, and that Livni’s decision to join Netanyahu’s nascent coalition might make the task easier. Obama is said to have urged both sides privately to heal their ties.

Similar talks took place in Geneva in November.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/turkey-confirms-holding-back-channel-reconciliation-talks-with-israel/

Israel has reportedly been prepared to apologize to Turkey for “operational errors” during its fatal raid on a May 2010 Turkish aid flotilla to Gaza.

As a condition to normalizing diplomatic ties with Israel, Turkey has demanded that Israel apologize for the death of nine activists who were killed when Israeli commandos raided the Mavi Marmara ship during a takeover operation in the Mediterranean.

The aid ship, chartered by the Islamist IHH organization, was headed to the Gaza Strip in defiance of Israel’s naval siege on the Hamas-run area.

Turkey has also demanded Israel lift the siege, but is prepared to drop that demand, a report in Turkey’s Radikal said last week. Israel is prepared to offer compensation to the families of those killed, according to the report.

Such a deal was reportedly under consideration in the summer of 2011, but was scuttled in part because of objections by then-Foreign Minister Avigdor Liberman. Now facing trial on corruption charges, Liberman is no longer in government.

JTA contributed to this report.