Ukraine

[Haykakan]

Re: Ukraine

Thanks for the history lesson Merv. I and many others here needed it.

[HermanGerman]

Re: Ukraine

Actually Novgorodin is one of the far northern cities near St. Petersburg. Very important in Russian history. Other important places include Vladimir, Suzdal, and Pskov. Moscow rose to prominence later.

Kievan Rus' was indeed centered on Kiev. The prince was converted to Orthodox Christianity and demanded to marry a Byzantine princess. He destroyed all the pagan idols to the Slavic gods by throwing them into the Dnieper and was baptised at Chersonnesos in Crimea, which was a Greek/Byzantine colony at the time.

The Mongol invasion destroyed Kiev and put most of Ukraine under the Mongol Golden Horde, later their inheritors the Tatars who were under Turkish rule.

Only western Ukraine remained outside of this longstanding Mongol slavery and fell under Poland, which Catholicized and polonized them.

Moscow arose as the first principality to break free of Mongol rule. When in 1453 Constantinople fell, the rules of Moscow on the basis of the fact that they had married Byzantine princesses and now that Russia was the largest outpost of Orthodoxy, declared Moscow to be the Third Rome, and Russia to be the inheritor of the Byzantine (and thus Roman) empire.

The other cities we discussed declined greatly at the expense of Moscow, including Novgorod, Pskov, Suzdal, etc. Moscow embarked on a rapid territorial expansion, quickly conquering back territory from the Mongol's in European Russia, wresting away land from the Swedes in the north, and then later on Siberia (which was pretty much uncontested from sparse tribal peoples), the west from Poland-Lithuania, and the south from the Turks.

Rus' became Rossiya on the basis of the Byzantine Greek name for Russians. In turn, Western Ukrainians continued calling themselves Rus', which was Latinized by the Poles into Ruthenia > Rusyns.

That's sort of a brief sketch of Russian history.

Thank you for the information. Could you please name some good online-sources or books etc.? It's an intesting topic, especially the part about the catholization and polonization of the Ukrainian Russian.
Shnoragalutiun

[Artashes]

Re: Ukraine

I'd also like to thank Merv. Very interesting post.
IMO, the EU is going to gut the Ukraine. Russia cannot afford to let go of kriem, as naval access is too important.
Although I think Russia's interests are self serving and not so benificial to others as they would have everyone to believe, I'd like to see them get more than just kriem to counter balance the fraudulent west. And I do think that part of Ukraine that they manage to retain away from the west will benefit more by Russia than the west.
Thanks again for the informative post Merv.
Artashes

[Artashes]

Re: Ukraine

Just read a pro west legal analysis and thought it was riddled with holes. An extremely one sided analysis that clearly favored Washington. Of the several big mistakes was admitting that the legally elected leader was not impeached under the existing rules.
I cannot believe Russia can let Kreim go.
Both US/Euro & Russia made their moves.
US/Euro instigated with planted protesters & Russia used pressure to drop EU move.
This is a contest of east/west and the west has been highly active in their manuevering. Blatantly so. Russia counters.
Sanctions are all west will do. Russia is not devoid of counter moves. I think China will help Russia overcome sanctions.
No west boots on the ground & plenty more Russian boots where the other Russian boots came from.
Ukraine made a mistake.
Artashes

[londontsi]

Re: Ukraine

.

One cannot help but draw parallels with Ukraine regards Armenia state security and EU integration.

From the record, the WORLD COMMUNITY gave security guarantees to Ukraine for its territorial integrity
in exchange for the hand over of its nuclear arsenal ( remnant from the Soviet times).

Russia was also a guarantor through this treaty.

Facts on the table show the value of these guarantees.

It also highlights the risks involved to chopping and changing traditional and committed ( all be it driven by self interest ) security guarantors.

[Mher]

Re: Ukraine

.

One cannot help but draw parallels with Ukraine regards Armenia state security and EU integration.

From the record, the WORLD COMMUNITY gave security guarantees to Ukraine for its territorial integrity
in exchange for the hand over of its nuclear arsenal ( remnant from the Soviet times).

Russia was also a guarantor through this treaty.

Facts on the table show the value of these guarantees.

It also highlights the risks involved to chopping and changing traditional and committed ( all be it driven by self interest ) security guarantors.

very true
one big difference though: Ukraine can afford a few more mistakes like this and still be fine as a nation. Armenia on the other hand could cease to exist as a nation with a single mistake of this level.

[Artashes]

Re: Ukraine

.

One cannot help but draw parallels with Ukraine regards Armenia state security and EU integration.

From the record, the WORLD COMMUNITY gave security guarantees to Ukraine for its territorial integrity
in exchange for the hand over of its nuclear arsenal ( remnant from the Soviet times).

Russia was also a guarantor through this treaty.

Facts on the table show the value of these guarantees.

It also highlights the risks involved to chopping and changing traditional and committed ( all be it driven by self interest ) security guarantors.

I've seen this repetedly. The ordinary citizen when in a contractual agreement is held to the letter of the law. However, corporate or govt is given wide latitude to disregard the contract if it doesn't favor them.
As I have said many times --- the ordinary person is held to a much higher standard than the privileged.
Artashes

[londontsi]

Re: Ukraine

Ex Ukraine Ambassador to Armenia

[Haykakan]

Re: Ukraine

Ex Ukraine Ambassador to Armenia

It does not get any more one sided then this. Besides stating the obvious (not so obvious to many people including ones here) that power trumps laws this guy makes it seem like Russia is the only one doing what it does. I wonder what this guy would say about USA in Iraq, or Afganistan , or Libya or Ukraine... or about the fact that the EU does not want to pressure Russia but is doing it because the USA is forcing it to. He brushes off the fact that NATO is encircling Russia. He says Russia is taking unilateral action as if the USA had popular support when invading other countries. Thus far Russia has done nothing wrong-it has taken what belongs to it and i would argue it has rights all the way to Kiev. These are Russian lands payed for with Russian blood spilled by Turks and Germans. If you are Armenia would you want Russia to come and get your ok before going into Ukraine? Would you want Russia to ask you to help it by donating troops? This guy takes the good things (the fact that Russia has not asked its allies for help) and makes them seem bad. It was the West that started the theme of self determination and Russia says ok i can play that game to but nooo USA and the west does not want to play a fair game it just wants to play a game called i win and like anyone with any measure of self respect Russia says FU.

[Haykakan]

Re: Ukraine

CRIMEAN TATARS ASK AZERBAIJAN'S ILHAM ALIYEV FOR HELP

EurasiaNet.org
March 10 2014

March 10, 2014 - 10:47am, by Giorgi Lomsadze

Four days after Crimean Tatars sent an SOS to Azerbaijani President
Ilham Aliyev, nothing has been heard from Baku but silence. For all its
grievances with Moscow, chances are slim that Azerbaijan, the Tatars'
rich South-Caucasus cousin, will stick its neck out over Crimea.

But Crimean Tatar community leader Mustafa Dzhemilyev, a Ukrainian
parliamentarian, gave it his best shot in a March 6 interview with
the news site Haqqin. "Do not leave your Crimean brothers and sisters
at this difficult time," Dzhemilyev implored Aliyev.

Recalling repressions by Tsarist and Soviet Russia, he underlined
that the Tatars will never put up with a Russian takeover of the
Crimean peninsula, and asked Aliyev to use his influence with Russian
President Vladimir Putin to prevent such an event.

The request was cc-ed to Turkish President Abdullah Gul and another
Turkic leader, Kazakhstani President Nursultan Nazarbayev.

Turkey has so far weighed in the strongest on the issue, while
Aliyev and Nazarbayev have been slow to provide even a non-binding,
thinking-of-you response.

Azerbaijani officials routinely emphasize Azerbaijan's emergence as a
regional power, but don't expect Aliyev to snap his fingers in Putin's
face over Crimea. Through its economic and political involvement in
the region and its many conflicts, Nagorno-Karabakh included, Russia
could hurt Azerbaijan.

But not everyone in Azerbaijan is willing to sit back. On March
9, two senior members of Azerbaijan's opposition Musavat Party,
Arif Gadjily and Gulaga Aslanly, were detained in Makhachkala, in
Russia's North Caucasus, while traveling by train to Ukraine. The
party has been outspokenly critical of Russia's Ukraine policy, and,
apparently, somebody had an eye out for any whistle-stop tours to
Kyiv. Local police on March 10 claimed that the two were sent back
home, APA reported.

But Baku is not alone in its reticence about Crimea.

Armenia, also slated to join Russia's Customs Union, is in a
straitjacket of economic dependence on Moscow, tightened by Russia's
49-year lease on a military base in Gyumri.

In Georgia, the most pro-West of the three, partisan screaming matches
continue about formulating a unanimous position on Ukraine, with the
government trying to say just enough not to spark a backlash by Moscow.

For now, looks like the South Caucasus is choosing to let the big
guys -- be it Russia, the US or EU -- handle this one.

http://www.eurasianet.org/node/68121