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  • #41
    Re: Ukraine

    Originally posted by bell-the-cat View Post
    So for all of Armenia's poodling to Russia, it has ended up in an even weaker position than before. Armenia has given the EU the finger and got a useless customs union with Russia in return, one which even Russia will no longer care about because Russia only wanted Armenia in to get Ukraine on board too. Armenia needs to discard the Customs Union asap, get back to negotiations with the EU beforre it is too late, and also keep an eye on what is happening in the Crimea - and if border changes happen, be ready to make potentual comparisons with NK.
    There are parallels between NK and Crimea

    The EU is more interested in detaching Armenia from the Russian orbit than wanting to help it


    • #42
      Re: Ukraine

      "So for all of Armenia's poodling to Russia, it has ended up in an even weaker position than before. Armenia has given the EU the finger and got a useless customs union with Russia in return, one which even Russia will no longer care about because Russia only wanted Armenia in to get Ukraine on board too. Armenia needs to discard the Customs Union asap, get back to negotiations with the EU beforre it is too late, and also keep an eye on what is happening in the Crimea - and if border changes happen, be ready to make potentual comparisons with NK."

      Yes right away Mr Bell and where is the nearest cliff we Armenians can all jump off of? Gosh you are so helpful and thoughtful..why if you did not show us that cliff how else were we going to commit suicide? Hey bell are those dollars for democracy you are counting?
      Hayastan or Bust.


      • #43
        Re: Ukraine

        Originally posted by bell-the-cat View Post
        Huh ... a Russian "historian" speaks.
        Not a word about the millions killed by his so lovable, so victimised Russians during the era of their cuddly fluffy Empire of Peace. Or maybe, concerning Ukraine specifically, Merv just hasn't heard of the Holodomor.
        I am not Russian.

        I did not deny that Russia has victimized Poland in particular, but it has not been invading the West at random, sacking Paris, London, Berlin without provocation, etc. And the Poles have their own history of invading Moscow, machinations with the false Dmitris, occupation of Ukraine, etc.

        The Holodomor was a famine engineered by Stalin - a Georgian - and Kaganovitch - a Ukrainian xxx. The victims were peasants, not Ukrainians per se, and large parts of Russia in the Donbas/Kuban region were affected worse than western Ukraine.

        Inspect this map:

        You will notice that the famine was far less severe in western Ukraine - which is nationalist and Russophobic, than in eastern Ukraine, which is Russian-speaking and much more in line with Russian rule. You will also observe that the severity/mortality of the famine was dependent on political structure of oblasts, not on Ukrainian ethnicity or language. For example, the Krasnodar-containing oblast in the east of the Black Sea is bisected between Russian and Ukrainian parts, yet the famine was more severe there than in the purely Ukrainian Stalino-Donetsk-containing oblast west of it. The Belgorod-containing oblast, also ~half-half Russian-Ukrainian by territory, was far less severely affected than Crimea, which we know has long had a Russian absolute majority.

        Thus, the whole "genocide" aspect of the Holodomor is fascist Ukrainian propaganda and bunk. It was Communist mismanagement and class warfare, but it was not ethnic genocide, and Russians should never be imputed with this in the same way that Turks are for the Armenian genocide or Germans for the Holocaust.

        While you go celebrating these pigs:

        I would remind you that they continue a tradition of mass-murder and hatred dating back decades. Please do instruct yourself on the extermination of ~50,000 Poles in Volhynia by these thugs, then tell me you support them.
        Attached Files


        • #44
          Re: Ukraine

          Boy that kitty cat sure is slippin these days..cant argue nor make any valid points anymore..purrr
          Hayastan or Bust.


          • #45
            Re: Ukraine

            Loved this
            I am starting to lose this one. How dare anyone excuse a great power
            hurling brute force against a small one, justifying it with some
            nonsense about extremists and a "responsibility to protect". There
            should be no place for such cynical bullying in a 21st-century world
            order. And for what? So a leader with a virility complex can play to
            his domestic gallery. The whole thing is utterly unacceptable. There
            must be costs and consequences.

            But enough of Iraq. What of Ukraine? We can only gasp at the hypocrisy
            of a British foreign secretary and an American secretary of state
            lecturing Russia from a Kiev street corner on the evil of invading
            small countries. Did no ghost of Iraq or Afghanistan, of Kosovo
            or Libya, hover over their shoulders?
            Hayastan or Bust.


            • #46
              Re: Ukraine

              Originally posted by Merv View Post
              I am not Russian.]
              Never said you were. You are just a copypaster of Russian lies, that's all. You are worthy of the same contempt as your Turkish equivalent - only those Turks copypaste their lies themselves, they don't use foreign poodles to do their genocide-denying work for them.
              Last edited by bell-the-cat; 03-06-2014, 07:09 AM.
              Plenipotentiary meow!


              • #47
                Re: Ukraine

                US sends F-16 fighter jets to Poland

                Politics is not about the pursuit of morality nor what's right or wrong
                Its about self interest at personal and national level often at odds with the above.
                Great politicians pursue the National interest and small politicians personal interests


                • #48
                  Re: Ukraine

                  Originally posted by bell-the-cat View Post
                  [...] In Ukraine the push was so hard it provoked a push back by the politically active part of the population. If the CU is going to be that advantageous to its members, why were they all so reluctant to be a part of it? Because the only big beneficiary is going to be its initiator, Russia.
                  Maybe because the potential member states have faced increasing pressure coming from the EU?! We both know that such decisions are almost never just based on pure economic aspects.
                  However, your statements (in this certain case) are more the sort of allegations we are used to see in mainstream media like CNN. You have not sufficiently justified your initial statement claiming that Armenia's membership in the CU constitutes a "substantial propaganda value".


                  • #49
                    Re: Ukraine

                    It appears Russia will be taking the Crimea-either annexing it or something like a Ossetia-Abkhasia scenario. The west will get the rest of Ukraine. You could say this would be as it should since one region wants to go one way and the other another but this ignores history and the fact that the Russ was born here at what was Novgrod which is where Kieve is today i believe. To imagine what this is like picture Russia telling america that it was annexing Boston (Plymouth Rock). Lets also not forget that the entire Ukraine would be under Turkish control if not for Russia...i wonder if those fascists in the western part understand this...o what am i talking about its not like they have a say in the matter anyways they are now slaves to the west and it is only fitting that fascists sympathize with the west since that is what the west is now days.
                    Hayastan or Bust.


                    • #50
                      Re: Ukraine

                      Actually Novgorodin is one of the far northern cities near St. Petersburg. Very important in Russian history. Other important places include Vladimir, Suzdal, and Pskov. Moscow rose to prominence later.

                      Kievan Rus' was indeed centered on Kiev. The prince was converted to Orthodox Christianity and demanded to marry a Byzantine princess. He destroyed all the pagan idols to the Slavic gods by throwing them into the Dnieper and was baptised at Chersonnesos in Crimea, which was a Greek/Byzantine colony at the time.

                      The Mongol invasion destroyed Kiev and put most of Ukraine under the Mongol Golden Horde, later their inheritors the Tatars who were under Turkish rule.

                      Only western Ukraine remained outside of this longstanding Mongol slavery and fell under Poland, which Catholicized and polonized them.

                      Moscow arose as the first principality to break free of Mongol rule. When in 1453 Constantinople fell, the rules of Moscow on the basis of the fact that they had married Byzantine princesses and now that Russia was the largest outpost of Orthodoxy, declared Moscow to be the Third Rome, and Russia to be the inheritor of the Byzantine (and thus Roman) empire.

                      The other cities we discussed declined greatly at the expense of Moscow, including Novgorod, Pskov, Suzdal, etc. Moscow embarked on a rapid territorial expansion, quickly conquering back territory from the Mongol's in European Russia, wresting away land from the Swedes in the north, and then later on Siberia (which was pretty much uncontested from sparse tribal peoples), the west from Poland-Lithuania, and the south from the Turks.

                      Rus' became Rossiya on the basis of the Byzantine Greek name for Russians. In turn, Western Ukrainians continued calling themselves Rus', which was Latinized by the Poles into Ruthenia > Rusyns.

                      That's sort of a brief sketch of Russian history.
                      Last edited by Merv; 03-07-2014, 08:26 AM.