Ukraine

[Haykakan]

Re: Ukraine

Bell you seem to be under the impression that we live in a world where fairness and laws matter. I wonder after witnessing the last few decades what on earth gives you this impression? Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that you are not an Armenian? You see we Armenians know better for we have for a century cried out and fought for justice but no one gives a poo about these things - all that matters is if you have the power to get what you want. I really do wish things were different but the world is full proof to the contrary just look at us the Armenians or if you prefer a more current example then have a glance at the Palastinians and many others in between..Precedent might matter in a world of law and order but we do not live in such a world. Law and order do not apply to the strong-they only apply to the weak to keep them weak.

During the early Soviet perion, Crimea was "given" to Ukraine in exactly the same way as Nagorno Karabagh was "given" to Azerbaijan. In both cases the actual populations living in the transferred areas had no part in the decision. If you can't see the parallels, and can't see that the reversal of the transfer of the Crimea to Ukraine will have a direct significance for the reversal of the transfer of NK to Azerbaijan, you must be blind.

Russia is of such importance that Ukraine and the world will have to recognise the transfer (which will probalby come via a referendum and then a short period of independence), and so this will nullfy any arguments that NK is still a de-jure part of Azerbaijan and that borders drawn up during the Soviet period are not alterable.

[Mher]

Re: Youkrain

lol the "propaganda" goes both ways

https://www.facebook.com/euromaidanart/photos/a.471321999652135.1073741827.471314229652912/510096219108046/?type=1&theater

https://www.facebook.com/euromaidanart/photos/a.471321999652135.1073741827.471314229652912/510637725720562/?type=1&theater

[Haykakan]

Re: Ukraine

Its on! Russian troops with some armor have taken important military targets ...some shots were fired but no bloodshed mentioned yet. The West who caused all this to begin with is now condeming Russian actions. Putin is not even talking to USA it seems and is communicating with the German leader instead. The navy in Crimea has defected and joined Russia. Nato is yapping but i see Russia holding all the cards here. Kerry threatened freezing Russian assets..

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Ukraine

@bell, you are right regarding the US and their so called "coalition of the willing" in the case of the Iraq war violating international law, but the circumstances here are different. I think that Armenia is not important as "proapganda value" because of more then one factor alone. Belarus and Kazakhastan's membership is a much higher propaganda value regarding Ukraine then little unimportant Armenia. A much more important factor is the unique security problem of Armenia. Almost everybody, even the most retarded citizen of Ukraine, should know that Armenia is totally dependent on Russia for security. This aspect alone would devaluate any "propagada value" because Armenia's security problem makes it look weak and open for blackmail. It is absolutely not clear what impact the security question had on Armenia's decision to join the CU and therefore I think that you are wrong in this special case. ....Sorry for my Englih, I am not a native English speaker.

There was plenty of blackmail going on to get Belarus and Kazakhastan's membership, and to get Ukraine's too of course. What was used for the blackmail varied from country to country, and probably Armenia needed only the mildest push to join given its particular position. In Ukraine the push was so hard it provoked a push back by the politically active part of the population. If the CU is going to be that advantageous to its members, why were they all so reluctant to be a part of it? Because the only big beneficiary is going to be its initiator, Russia.

All this is very similar to was used to get America's "coalition of the willing" - almost nobody was completely willing, some of the willing (like Armenia, or Poland) just did it to curry favour with America (and also, I think, as newly independent countries, the urge to appear be important by being involved in a world event), some of the willing were considerably less willing than others and had to be given an extra push through diplomatic sticks and carrots.

[Haykakan]

Re: Ukraine

EXPERT: ERDOGAN'S "SUPPORT" OF THE CRIMEA POLICY OF RUSSIA IS CONFLICTING WITH THE STATE APPROACH OF TURKEY

by David Stepanyan

Monday, March 3, 15:00

Turkish Prime Minister Receyp Erdogan's "support" of the Crimea policy
of Russia has nothing in common with the state approach of Turkey,
Turkologist, Artak Shakaryan, told ArmInfo correspondent.

On 2 March when commenting on Moscow's intention to bring troops into
the Crimea, Turkish premier said that Moscow was right in the matter
of the Crimea, as it protects its national interests.

"The statement by Erdogan is in direct conflict with the Kiev statement
of Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu, which did not say about
observing of Russia's interests in the Crimea. So, the pro-Russian
statements of the Turkish premier continue his anti-American line
after the corruption scandal in Ankara on 17

December around the ruling AKP and the premier, initiated by the
American secret services, as Erdogan thinks. In other words, by
protection Russia Erdogan is trying to discredit the USA and Europe
in general", - he said.

http://www.arminfo.am/index.cfm?objectid=7AA03F70-A2CB-11E3-91C40EB7C0D21663

[HermanGerman]

Re: Ukraine

Ukraine Crisis - V. Putin's latest Press Conference [04.03.2014]

[Haykakan]

Re: Ukraine

Something to read

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/03/04/ukraine-omidyar-and-the-neo-liberal-agenda/

[Haykakan]

Re: Ukraine

Why the Russians in Ukraine need to worry

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/03/03/the-nature-of-war-has-changed/

[Merv]

Re: Ukraine

The events in the Ukraine are a Western-orchestrated attempt to seize the linchpin to Russia's restoration of its empire. True or not, the Western thesis for quite a while (including one held by the likes of Brzezinski) is that without Ukraine, Russia is a country, but that with Ukraine it is an empire.

The Western Ukrainians centered in places like Lvov are neo-Nazis whose hate and violence against Poles, xxxs, and Russians is well known. They engaged in genocide in WWII against xxxs, in mass murder of Poles in Volynia and Galicia at that time, in manning Hitler's concentration camps in Poland and Germany, and in SS divisions that murdered Russians during Operation Barbarossa.

The Western Ukrainians have nothing to do with the Russian-speaking Eastern Orthodox Eastern/Southern Ukrainians. They are proteges of Western interests in penetrating the former Russian empire all the way to the Caucasus, in cutting Russia off from the Black Sea, in stealing Caspian oil and the grain of the steppe.

Russia has been in an existential struggle with the West for the past 200 years, which has assaulted Russia 4 times during that period. Russia has assaulted the West 0 times in that time period. We had Napoleon, the (first) Crimean War, WWI, and WWII. In each instant, the West has been brutally crushing both Russian interests, her people, and other peoples who might be sympathetic to Russia. They have used puppet states (Grand Duchy of Warsaw, Saakashvili's Georgia), proxy wars (Austria-Hungary vs. Serbia, Georgia vs. S. Ossetia), mass murder of Russian POWs, slave labor, terror bombing, incitement of insurrections (Crimean Tatars, Chechens in WWII and 1990s), colored revolutions (Rose, Orange, etc.), coup d'etats, etc. all with the intent of annexing territory and expelling Russia as a dominant (and currently, the dominant) power in Eurasia.

Russia cannot afford to have Ukraine torn from her grasp. If Putin is savvy, he will work to have the entire Black Sea coast, eastern industrial cities, and Kiev itself back in the Russian orbit. The western part can go off to be with Poland, Lithuania, and Germany.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Ukraine

The events in the Ukraine are a Western-orchestrated attempt to seize the linchpin to Russia's restoration of its empire. True or not, the Western thesis for quite a while (including one held by the likes of Brzezinski) is that without Ukraine, Russia is a country, but that with Ukraine it is an empire.

The Western Ukrainians centered in places like Lvov are neo-Nazis whose hate and violence against Poles, xxxs, and Russians is well known. They engaged in genocide in WWII against xxxs, in mass murder of Poles in Volynia and Galicia at that time, in manning Hitler's concentration camps in Poland and Germany, and in SS divisions that murdered Russians during Operation Barbarossa.

The Western Ukrainians have nothing to do with the Russian-speaking Eastern Orthodox Eastern/Southern Ukrainians. They are proteges of Western interests in penetrating the former Russian empire all the way to the Caucasus, in cutting Russia off from the Black Sea, in stealing Caspian oil and the grain of the steppe.

Russia has been in an existential struggle with the West for the past 200 years, which has assaulted Russia 4 times during that period. Russia has assaulted the West 0 times in that time period. We had Napoleon, the (first) Crimean War, WWI, and WWII. In each instant, the West has been brutally crushing both Russian interests, her people, and other peoples who might be sympathetic to Russia. They have used puppet states (Grand Duchy of Warsaw, Saakashvili's Georgia), proxy wars (Austria-Hungary vs. Serbia, Georgia vs. S. Ossetia), mass murder of Russian POWs, slave labor, terror bombing, incitement of insurrections (Crimean Tatars, Chechens in WWII and 1990s), colored revolutions (Rose, Orange, etc.), coup d'etats, etc. all with the intent of annexing territory and expelling Russia as a dominant (and currently, the dominant) power in Eurasia.

Russia cannot afford to have Ukraine torn from her grasp. If Putin is savvy, he will work to have the entire Black Sea coast, eastern industrial cities, and Kiev itself back in the Russian orbit. The western part can go off to be with Poland, Lithuania, and Germany.

Huh ... a Russian "historian" speaks.
Not a word about the millions killed by his so lovable, so victimised Russians during the era of their cuddly fluffy Empire of Peace. Or maybe, concerning Ukraine specifically, Merv just hasn't heard of the Holodomor.