Will you marry an Armenian/non-Armenian?

[TJ]

dont try to convince her that her nation is a barbarian nation and always has been. to her this whole big thing is a conspiracy we Armenians and Greeks and Assyrians and Bulgarians and Arabs and Italians and Russians and the rest of Europe got together one day and decided to make up these stories of Genocide and inhuman conduct so htat we could make the turks look bad, yes you found the conspiracy and turkey is the nicest nation in hte world they never did anything its just the rest of the world is against turkey. Go feed you brain something other than turkish propoganda before you try to make fair decisions

[Anonymouse]

Now now Tigran, follow Barons posts, and see how he is able to carry out his argument in a rational and eloquent manner.

There is no need to resort to emotional outbursts and grammatical errors.

Let's keep quality and rationality in here, not blind emotional ravings.

[disksoleil]

Both anonymouse and baron_dants thank you for your explainations...

i guess i offended you by saying that the genocide has no strong evidence and all, i am sorry for that, i did not mean that genocide did not take place. what i meant was there are other things that came about in Turkey for the last 3 years. They found a mass grave of Turks killed dating back to genocide times, so i thought maybe there actually had been some struggle between the civilians (Armenian and Turks) and maybe the Armenians were killed in that struggle also.

I do not want you people to hate me, because i did not carry out any agressive actions towards any of you. Even if i were living 100 years back i wouldnt, my family wouldnt, my friends wouldnt.


As Armenian websites suggest it was Enver Pasa and Talat Pasa who decided to get rid of Armenians. I do not think they asked the people whether they agree or not...


If todays Turks ever hate Armenians its because of what we see from Armenians. Whenever i counter any Armenian, i got insulted or things like that. ( i am talking about the Armenians outside Turkey, i do not have any problem with the ones in Turkey) I hope you people can understand that, if every of you insulted me one by one, i would be able to keep naive.


I do understand that my ancestors have been very ambitious about 'conquering' new territories and all.... This ideology was called Turan, they wanted to make a world empire (and therefore make everyone muslim i guess)... i DO NOT agree with that... Only the conquering of Constantinople makes sense to me, as the prophet has commanded from any muslim commander. but the rest is a bully and horror to the people of other lands.

Today people in my country dont care about taking people's lands nor making them muslim.... we just want to live peacefully in what we have, and we want to have good relations with the others. thats all we care.

Some countries believe that we are a potential danger for their independence and all, but their only supportive defence is our past actions.

Some are so scared that they do not alow us to set up weapon producing factories to produce our own military weapons. But our army and weapons are purely intended to defend ourselves in case of any occupation and all.
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Another point, i have mentioned about 'pity' because some of the members of this forum always bring the talk to the land they have lost, and they will get back and stuff... their main point is not the recognition of genocide... this hit me in the head as if genocide was being used as a tool.

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About kurds being poor rams, i do not agree about this at all.some of them have made my two aunts' lives painful by killing their sons. but i do not hate them. Because not all of them are like that. But i got disappointed by most of them.

I had a Kurd friend in high school, one day we all went to a restaurant from school, there i saw a friend of mine, an American girl from Incirlik (the American Air Base in Adana), i invited her to our table, and she accepted. While everyone was ordering their food, i was introducing her to my friends and my Kurd friend jumped into the conversation saying 'hi i am kurd' this surprised us all. because none of my class mates nor him nor me ever had such a conversation like 'i am turk or i am kurd or whatever'.... Anyway the girl liked all of my friends and took all their phone numbers and gave hers. One day out of the blue she called me and said that, one of my friends called her asking whether he could go to USA as a refugee, cos he was under pressure in our school! that even his classmates would bully him cause he is kurd!

Such things have never happened, we treated him normally just like any one of us, we thought he was our friend. i felt very vengeful for the reason that he betrayed his friends in such a miserable way. i didnt bring this topic up in school.

I went to his house to talk to him personally. His parents greeted me very nicely and offered me tea then we sat down together for a while, none of his siblings nor his mother spoke turkish, but that was normal, they do not have to speak turkish if they do not want.
but we had a small conversation thanks to my friend, translating to both sides.

later as noone would understand what we were talking about, i told him about what the American friend told me, and he burst out crying, also behaving strangely. he said he had to lie to her because he wanted to go to US and get some money for his family, as both his parents were not working... once i heard this story i believed him and my vengeful thoughts were gone.
it was very normal that the parents were not working, they have not even finished primary school, and they only spoke kurdish, no one would give them jobs like that. i promised i would help him. The school principal was my uncle, so i asked him to give some bursary to my friend, he and some officials investigated where and how the boy lives and they gave him a bursary, and his two brothers also got bursary so they could go to school. my uncle also gave my friend's father a job as a gardener to take care of the trees and the flowers in the school's garden .
I still have contacts with him, he is now studying in one of the best universities in Istanbul. but sometimes when i think of how he lied, it hurts.

I told you guys this story just to explain you that we are not torturing Kurds, or nothing like that. Ive never witnessed any torture of them. But when they need anything, they prefer lying and accusing, rather than asking help from proper government offices.

For the terrorist ones, they really existed but now they are mostly in jail and all, some of them died in combat.

5% of thos who got involved in terrorist actions got facial plastic surgery and set free, their identities even changed. I do not know whats the case with those.


now they are allowed to do many more things than in the past. They have tv channels in their own language, and newspapers and stuff...


i hope the things will improve for them...


sorry guys, i had more to talk but now i must go to my lecture... i will post later. please reply, but not insult okay?

[Anonymouse]

Both anonymouse and baron_dants thank you for your explainations...

i guess i offended you by saying that the genocide has no strong evidence and all, i am sorry for that, i did not mean that genocide did not take place. what i meant was there are other things that came about in Turkey for the last 3 years. They found a mass grave of Turks killed dating back to genocide times, so i thought maybe there actually had been some struggle between the civilians (Armenian and Turks) and maybe the Armenians were killed in that struggle also.

First of all you didn't offend me, you just surprised me, because you failed to use logic and instead appealed to emotion or party leanings.

Second of all, as to the 'mass graves', any archaeologist or historiographer must ask such questions as where are these mass graves found? In what part of Turkey? Furthermore, how many of these mass graves are there? Where is the physical evidence basically. As to the 'mass graves' having 'Turks' or 'Armenians' there is no sure way of finding out, unless you can talk to the dead. Many times in the Jewish Holocaust 'mass graves' have either been outright frauds, or if they have been found, have been claimed to be 'Jewish'. Isn't strange that all mass graves are somehow 'Jewish'? Well they could be anyone. Unless they had their penises with the distinctive circumcision there is no way to know. Have you looked personally? Basically there is no way of knowing if they were Turks than there is to show that they weren't Swedes.

I do not want you people to hate me, because i did not carry out any agressive actions towards any of you. Even if i were living 100 years back i wouldnt, my family wouldnt, my friends wouldnt..

I don't hate you. Any like minded reasonable person doesn't hate you either. Rest assured.

If todays Turks ever hate Armenians its because of what we see from Armenians. Whenever i counter any Armenian, i got insulted or things like that. ( i am talking about the Armenians outside Turkey, i do not have any problem with the ones in Turkey) I hope you people can understand that, if every of you insulted me one by one, i would be able to keep naive.

Even if you insist Armenians hating you, there must be a reason for such strong hate, perhaps it is continuous references such as "Armenians are making this up for pity", when I myself lost my great grandparents on both sides of my family to the Genocide. This isn't about pity, and I can see that there is much unfounded hatred, but you must first and foremost critique thyself before you critique others. I have critiqued my people and some of the hatred they have towards Turks and I can see that alot of the blame put on you, is illogical and irrational since you yourself had nothing to do with it. But you can however, start to critique your government and people. Never trust any government as a side note, since all political systems seek to divide and seperate people. It was during World War I when the modern day Turkish nation state was forming, ironically it was during that time of politicization that Armenians suffered under the hands of Denmeh Jews, masquerading as the Young Turks. Now, if we don't admit our flaws then we surely learn nothing from history, and even worse, it stifles self development.

This Turko-Armenian feud proves my point precisely. As long as we are divided into armed political camps of losing our individuality based on government induced thinking, then no headway will be made. Both groups will continue to play the endless tug of war of politics, as that is all this is in this day and age.

[Anonymouse]

By the way diskoliel, do you live in Turkey? The reason is because you seem to have difficulty typing in English. No pun intended, just curious.

[disksoleil]

some mass graves were found by the peasants, they reported to the military police, and they reported to wherever else, and the excavations were carrioud out by Turkish and American scientists as well as historians, the bones were tested in Hacettepe university hospital. They are ready for your approval if you pay atention. As this is proven by scientists what do you think guys?

some of the massgraves were found by the scientists who wanted to make research upon interviewing the eyewitnesses of 1915 events

there are more than 3 mass graves. there are some axcavations still going on. two completed(the ones in Van)


P.S. I have a very limited time to type here, there may be typo errors and all. what do you expect? i am not sitting here to write essays for you people to mark. oh by the way i am not living in Turkey since 3 years, but i have been (and will be) going home to see my family every three months until my return in 2007.

[ckBejug]

Do they have exact proof from lineage/family lines and DNA evidence that the bodies were of Turks?

[ckBejug]

Do they have exact proof from lineage/family lines and DNA evidence that the bones in he mass graves were of Turks?

[ckBejug]

They found a mass grave of Turks killed dating back to genocide times, so i thought maybe there actually had been some struggle between the civilians (Armenian and Turks) and maybe the Armenians were killed in that struggle also.

Disksoleil. I dont know where you learned about the graves being found in Turkey but wherever you got your information from (no matter how accurate it might be about the actualy site of the graves and what was found there and what is being done to analyze it and everything) it is VERY premature to peg it a mass grave of Turks. For all you know those could be Armenians in that mass grave. After all van was inhabited by Armenians before... At this point I bet they will try to do DNA testing on the bones or whatever remnants are in the graves in order to try to find a link and see if they are ancestors of Turks or Armenians or whomever. Until such testing has occured I think we'd better leave it a mass graves were found, without already claiming that there are Turks in there. After the proof has been found, then you can tell us....

I do understand that my ancestors have been very ambitious about 'conquering' new territories and all....

Some countries believe that we are a potential danger for their independence and all, but their only supportive defence is our past actions.

Some are so scared that they do not alow us to set up weapon producing factories to produce our own military weapons. But our army and weapons are purely intended to defend ourselves in case of any occupation and all.

In this case, I think the word 'ambitious' is quite a gross misrepresentation. They were quite adamant and even barbaric in their conquests. There was a misguided ambition, to say the least. While I am glad to hear that you disapprove of their actions, it is difficult for me to understand why you say you don't approve, then negate your disapproval by softening the words and using the words "ambitious" and " 'conquest' " to describe their actions. it's like you're trying to use nicer words to try to make is sound less awful.

No offense to you or anything. But I am particularly glad that some countries do not want you to produce weapons. ou say hat these countries only have past actions to judge Turkey on. See the thing is, one can only judge others based on their past actions, as past actions have dictated, Turks with power and misguided passions have tended to act in barbaric ways towards those under their control. Granted we are a much more civilized society today, but as long as Armenia is going to be forever next door to Turkey, I don't want Turkey to have weapons at it's disposal. A government with past 'sneakiness' and barbarism on its track record is not to be trusted. Of course! the government of young turks didn't ask for the peoples agreement before perpetrating genocide and any other mass killings to those living in its territories. It didn't back then, and if it felt like conquering more lands, it wouldn't today either. So I would not be so quick t trust their intentions of weapons strengthening.

Another point, i have mentioned about 'pity' because some of the members of this forum always bring the talk to the land they have lost, and they will get back and stuff... their main point is not the recognition of genocide... this hit me in the head as if genocide was being used as a tool.

Last time we posted along the lines of this topic you saw the various responses we had to your questions.Some hot headed fellows among us were quick to judge you and tell you how much they hate Turks, etc. However, you also saw that the level-headed among us outnumbered those haters. You read what a few of us wrote about promoting education and historical facts, etc. In order to reach a new understanding and get the recognition our ancestors deserve to have.Some among us realize that conquered lands cannot just be given back (although I agree with Baron Dantz that symbolically significant lands- especially those uninhabited by Turks- such as Mount Ararat rightfully belong to us.) anyway as I was saying, we understand it's your home, etc, what we want is an apology, an acceptance of the erring ways of your anscestors and an ability to put he souls of those who died so long ago at a final peace. Now, you have to understand something here. Much as I was quite level-headed the last time I posted to you, I do not appreciate you taking the opinions of some (those who posted vehemently about wanting lands back) and use them to claim that we are asking for pity. I can assure you of one thing that you can take away from our forum if you never learn anything else- Armenian people are so proud, 'pity' is not a word you should be throwing around about us. Another thing, after we spent so much time explaining to you some of the historical facts, you Still said you don't believe 1.5 million people were killed. The fact remains that you are a Turk posting on an Armenian forum, so if you wish not to be met by hostile remarks by some people who wont be able to calmly think about what you say because the genocide is a very raw and painful thing for them, then I suggest you don't come in here and try to negate their feelings with your opinions. Like I said before, first you need to learn all the facts. Then make your arguments. We hold as a fact truer than the 'ocean is blue' that 1.5 million Armenians were killed in a genocide perpetrated by the Young Turkish Government headed by talaat pasha, who was quite justly murdered by an Armenian Freedom Fighter (who was aquitted by a French judge and jury), so please do not belittle the loss of their life anymore wih words you say out of frustration you feel when you hear that a lot of Armenians hate Turks.

One last thing, I wonder why you think educated armenians who seek only an apology from the Turkish government (and NO restitution, monies, or land) would make up such a sotry? We are not attention seekers. Nor are other countries afraid of allowing us to have weapons because we have a shady past, so what do you think of when you say the genocide might or might not have happened, do you think t's a conspiracy, that some armenian was drinking coffee and thought holy xxxx here's a way to get back at that bastard Turk who stole my horse??

Another thing. I am sure in your quest for education you have realized that people are not stupid and there are many educated people out there. So, do you think the following countries had no proof or were they well knowledgable about everything and the fact that IT HAPPENED before they acepted the historical fact that the Armenian Genocide occured?

* Argentina - 1985
* Australia
* Belgium
* Canada - 1996
* England
* France - 1998
* Greece
* Italy
* Kurdistan
* Lebanon
* Russia
* Sweden
* Uruguay - 1965
* California
* Vatican City

[TJ]

Good post. BRAVO