Will you marry an Armenian/non-Armenian?

[Artsakhtsi]

Realy :!:

[euroE34]

don't matter to me

[Artsakhtsi]

I actualy know the person, with whos help Sweden happens to be among this list of countrys , his name is Murad Artin ! 8)

[Anonymouse]

some mass graves were found by the peasants, they reported to the military police, and they reported to wherever else, and the excavations were carrioud out by Turkish and American scientists as well as historians, the bones were tested in Hacettepe university hospital. They are ready for your approval if you pay atention. As this is proven by scientists what do you think guys?.

Bones? Of course they are human. You can not use BONES to determine ones ethnicity within that region, no more than you can take a yardstick and use it as a reliable source of measurement for a gallon of water.

The fact is within that mediterranean region people are far closer to each other than when compared to other parts of the world. For all you know they were Armenians speaking Turkish. For all we know the Turkish government can do whatever they want with the information and put whatever spin it wants on it. Bones are not a significant marker of ones "Turkic" ancestry, nor ones Armenian ancestry. The fact that Turks were persecuting and relocating Armenians in that region, which has historically been Armenian lands ( Eastern Turkey ) might lend credence to the hypothesis that they were Armenians. Of course one need only look at history to see that Armenians occupied Van and where are they now? Did they just pack up and leave? No one just decides to move out of their lands on one sunny day.

Do you have any link or some sort of source you can post up? Pardon my skepticism.

some of the massgraves were found by the scientists who wanted to make research upon interviewing the eyewitnesses of 1915 events.

That's great, show me the mass graves. I am all for open historical study.

there are more than 3 mass graves. there are some axcavations still going on. two completed(the ones in Van).

I am curious as to how big each alleged mass grave is. Are there pictures of this we can see? Cross sections? Any sort of reference points? I don't want to simply take it on word of mouth, surely there must be photographic evidence of this if it is American and Turkish historians and archaeologists working on it, and providing they are UNBIASED in their studies. More than one might care to admit, if there are such graves, and if proper evidence is cited, it would seem more credible fitting in the version where Armenians were persecuted off their lands, as opposed to the Turkish version.

P.S. I have a very limited time to type here, there may be typo errors and all. what do you expect? i am not sitting here to write essays for you people to mark. oh by the way i am not living in Turkey since 3 years, but i have been (and will be) going home to see my family every three months until my return in 2007.

I don't want an essay from you dear. Could you perhaps provide me with some reference material or cite your source for this?

[disksoleil]

hi again,

ckbejug, the identifications and the testing of DNA was done of course but these were not sufficient to differentiate whether they were Armenians or Turks i suppose, cos they went on to bring some criminal and murder investigators from the US to further investigate. but the thing that was most drastic in identifying that they were Turkish corpses was the serial numbers of the bullets in their skulls and other parts of their bodies.

the bullets are of Russian made, i do not know how did Russian weapons got to Van, but when theres a will theres a way right?


the theory that they were killed by Armenians was not brought up in the beginning of the excavations. Armenians are accused because the bullets belong to the weapons that were collected from the Armenians, there are several documents proving this, they have the codes of each weapon and the name of the people who owned that particular weapon, and even how those people were punished. i guess they were hanged.

I do not know what made Armenians kill Turks then, but some scholars suggest three scenarios...

1) help Russians kill as much Turks as they can, when the war is over get land

2) kill Turks in the region, become majority, when the war is over get land

3) very scared of Turks killing them, so before Turks kill them, they kill Turks.


whatever it is, it seems those people were killed by Armenians


Now i have this mindset:

Armenians killed Turks

Turks killed more Armenians

Armenians were chased from where they should be


So guys, i can tell you that relocation or whatever it was was not fair at all... cos i do not believe that not all the Armenians were responsible of killing Turks.

If they raped women and killed children, that is inhumane, i am sure they will receive a good enough punishment from God. As all those already died.


If you guys are having doubts of those mass graves go and see them... I do not care about fighting with anyone for all those people killed there and buried without a single prayer... Because it is all over, its just a pity that, they were innocent people.


Anyways you have mentioned about those countries that recognized genocide, well that is good for you guys. Add my name there, i have recognized it also.


i just want you people to understand one thing, no one will kill anyone without a reason, if my ancestors killed your ancestors WITHOUT any reason at all, on behalf of them I as for your forgiveness.

[disksoleil]

hi anonymouse,

i guess it was Armenian politics section i have sent some unofficial links that provide some photos of some graves and the weapons collected from Armenians. i cant provide official links yet.

[Anonymouse]

Or how about the scenario of:

Turks kill and relocate Armenians.

Armenians kill Turks.

Turks kill more Armenians.

Do you not think it is entirely possible for someone to fight back?

Jews fought back and killed Nazis.

As far as "populating" the area, Armenians had been far outnumbered by Turks for quite sometime, therefore I don't see any credence leading to that argument. Armenians have for most of their history been a small people.

As far as the sources, I don't believe I saw them in the politics forum, and I doubt they are unbiased and official.

I do not know how big or small these graves are, nor how many bodies they housed. But isn't it also interesting that Turkey doesn't allow Armenian historians to come to Eastern Turkey to study or excavate. Isn't also interesting that no matter what foreign body of historians or scientists come to study they must first go through the Turkish government in order to research their material.

So what this poses is a problem, and that is that the excavations and studying might be cherry picked. They might intentionally pick a certain site and not study another that would ruin their argument.

Such government and established bias is certainly counter productive and unscientific. I would greatly like to see some evidence or sources of these mass graves, rather than just mere govt. concocted allegations.

I only found these links regarding the alleged mass graves but then again look at the source. If that isn't bias I don't know what is.

http://www.kultur.gov.tr/portal/default_en.asp?belgeno=3344

http://www.kultur.gov.tr/portal/default_en.asp?belgeno=3341

Again to me this is rather dubious. I don't see any pictures, any cross sections or reference points, and I certainly don't see an unbiased open historical examination. The whole excavation was subsidized by no one else than the Turkish government.

To me dear soliel, when you came to discuss with Armenians here you already came with a predetermined and fixed view on things, meaning you didn't come here with a clear and unbiased state of mind. I hope this is not true and you are indeed questioning yourself, and your government and what you have been taught, as I certainly have. And I can't remember if it was Socrates or Aristotle or whoever, that said, all life is a series of questions and we must always question ourselves and our surroundings.

I don't want lands or money, unlike the Jews, all I care for is an apology. No material ailments will bring back my ancestors nor change the past, and I only seek to build a new future.

I find it strange that Israel is one of the strongest allies of Turkey, and also one of the countries that doesn't like to recognize the Genocide in its museum, since only the Jewish Holocaust™, is to be the one that everyone should hear about and study, and feel guilty for and constantly be subjected to it.

[disksoleil]

hi again anonymouse, you might be right about that website link you gave as they havent provided with any photos and all. the government is rather ridiculous in that subject.

I do not know in what terms we became allies with Israel, but i guess we are the only muslim country that doesnt hate jews. dont ask me why others hate jews, cos i dont know.

I hope one day you will receive the apology u expect.i hope it is soon.

[Anonymouse]

hi again anonymouse, you might be right about that website link you gave as they havent provided with any photos and all. the government is rather ridiculous in that subject.

I do not know in what terms we became allies with Israel, but i guess we are the only muslim country that doesnt hate jews. dont ask me why others hate jews, cos i dont know.

I hope one day you will receive the apology u expect.i hope it is soon.

Ahh but you see, in order for there to be an apology, one must know what they have done and why they are apologizing, and that would mean they are admitting to the past.

[disksoleil]

the government does not want to accept that sending all those people to desert aka relocation was a disaster. i would also admit that, when we studied this subject in history class (secondary school) i did not bother much about relocation... cos i thought they went by train or something, i did not know that they were forced on foot and without any drinks or food. that is cruel. i admit this entire thing. if i were to discuss this issue with any other Turks i would defend that until they accept.

i guess once everyone in turkey knows about in what kind of cruel conditions Armenians were relocated and stuff, maybe they would be more willing to recognize it, government wouldnt be left with much choice.