Religion and Atheism

[jgk3]

Re: Religion and Atheism

I am a agnostic not a athiest but i think i can help you out there. Many people today have been so brainwashed that they think religion is the sole source of ethics and morality. While the church/mosque/synagog... would love for all of us to believe such nonsense, and have us follow their own brand, we can easily argue against this assertion by asking a simple rehtorical question of our own. Was there not morality and ethics prior to religion? This is a rehtorical question because anyone with half a brain will answer that yes there was morality and ethics prior to religion. People had their rights and wrongs and goods and bads long before they concieved religion. The source of morality and ethics has never been religion, as a matter of fact one can make a good argument that religion has effectively distorted our sence of morality and ethics to better fit it all into its own agenda. The real source comes from common sense. People have always been social animals thus if i do something bad to you i can surely expect the same in return and this may prevent me from being bad to others. If i do something nice for you then perhaps you will return the favor. The later part is not as dependable a responce as the former but they both are effective in shaping morals and ethics loooong before religion ever existed. So the short and sweet answer to the question is common sense.

Religious traditions link a set of morals/ethics with the divine, as the divine is seen as the primary source of human existence or nature. Thus, if you argue to a believer that morals/ethics don't have to come from God since afterall, you're an agnostic who has those morals/ethics, they could turn around and say something like, "Yes, those things still come from God because you were created in God's image. Even if you turn away from Him spiritually, you cannot get rid of the moral/ethical attributes He imbued into the blueprint of your being".

[hipeter924]

Re: Religion and Atheism

I find history, politics and philosophy more interesting than science and religion put together, when I find interest in either they have to be in relation to history, politics or philosophy. When I attended religious studies lectures I fell asleep nearly, and the debate bored me to death; ironically when I attended a philosophy class with some Hindu/Buddhist perspectives on free will I was really fascinated.

[Haykakan]

Re: Religion and Atheism

I'd like to jump start this thread again. So here goes.

What is/are the sources or basis of ethnics and morality for atheists? If any of our fellow atheists would care to share their particular source(s), that would be nice.

I am a agnostic not a athiest but i think i can help you out there. Many people today have been so brainwashed that they think religion is the sole source of ethics and morality. While the church/mosque/synagog... would love for all of us to believe such nonsense, and have us follow their own brand, we can easily argue against this assertion by asking a simple rehtorical question of our own. Was there not morality and ethics prior to religion? This is a rehtorical question because anyone with half a brain will answer that yes there was morality and ethics prior to religion. People had their rights and wrongs and goods and bads long before they concieved religion. The source of morality and ethics has never been religion, as a matter of fact one can make a good argument that religion has effectively distorted our sence of morality and ethics to better fit it all into its own agenda. The real source comes from common sense. People have always been social animals thus if i do something bad to you i can surely expect the same in return and this may prevent me from being bad to others. If i do something nice for you then perhaps you will return the favor. The later part is not as dependable a responce as the former but they both are effective in shaping morals and ethics loooong before religion ever existed. So the short and sweet answer to the question is common sense.

[Armanen]

Re: Religion and Atheism

I'd like to jump start this thread again. So here goes.

What is/are the sources or basis of ethnics and morality for atheists? If any of our fellow atheists would care to share their particular source(s), that would be nice.

[Stark Evade]

Re: Religion and Atheism

There may be a difference between them but rights cannot exist without power thus there is a dependent relationship here with rights being the dependent variable, so dependent in fact that rights cannot exist wo power.

I think your misconstruing the relationship as a dependency of the rights' existence on the force that enforces them. In order to enforce something, it first has to be accepted as something worth enforcing. It gets that worth because there are reasons behind it and ultimately those reasons are fueled by what I stated is our social evolution. Anyway, this can go on forever.

[hipeter924]

Re: Religion and Atheism

I eat bacon, sausages, ham and salami like meats, but I tend not to like any others.

[Haykakan]

Re: Religion and Atheism

In some respect, it seems like you're proving my point. You're consistently acknowledging a difference between the rights and "the power to back them up." That difference seems to be the most important aspect of the discussion. Whether it is conscious or not, there is some recognition of one idea being independent of the other and this comes from the social evolution of people.

There may be a difference between them but rights cannot exist without power thus there is a dependent relationship here with rights being the dependent variable, so dependent in fact that rights cannot exist wo power.

[Stark Evade]

Re: Religion and Atheism

How could such rights exist without the power to back them up? You can disagree with me all you like but the fact is no right can exist without power and never has existed.

In some respect, it seems like you're proving my point. You're consistently acknowledging a difference between the rights and "the power to back them up." That difference seems to be the most important aspect of the discussion. Whether it is conscious or not, there is some recognition of one idea being independent of the other and this comes from the social evolution of people.

[Haykakan]

Re: Religion and Atheism

I disagree. I believe one can have rights consistent with morality without them being enforced or enforceable. I see a difference between rights and that steps taken (or not) to protect them.

How could such rights exist without the power to back them up? You can disagree with me all you like but the fact is no right can exist without power and never has existed.

[Stark Evade]

Re: Religion and Atheism

The dissonance you mention could be due to the difference in perception of what "rights" are between you and I. I do not believe rights are given nor inherent. The issue of rape is not unlike the issue of a womens right to vote. No one gave women either right (protection from rape or right to vote). It was women who came togather and did whatever they needed to get the power to have such rights and they like everyone else have to keep fighting to keep this power and the accompanying rights. They were not born with these rights nor were they handed these rights, they made their own rights and protected them. I believe biodiversity is good for everyone thus i am all for protecting endangered species but this protection is not a right because it is at our pleasure that they have it and we can take it away at will. A right needs to have power behind it, without this power a right is meaningless.

I disagree. I believe one can have rights consistent with morality without them being enforced or enforceable. I see a difference between rights and that steps taken (or not) to protect them.