Religion and Atheism

[Armanen]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Haykakan:

How do sociology and psychology explain ethics or morality? This is a question, not a challenge.


You say religion does more harm, but do you realize that it was religious people who were behind the anti slavery movement or that it was religious arabs and Christian missionaries that saved many Armenians during and after the AG? We can go on and on about the positive things that people of faith do, and we can also list the negatives, but the teachings of all major religions, except judaism, are for the betterment of all mankind. Just because some have mis used it does not mean that the religion itself is bad. It's like how some want to take guns away from all Americans because some idiots who have them, most without a permit, commit crimes. As you can see the logic of those wanting to take everyone's guns away is poor.

[Haykakan]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Yes, all religions are traditions which evolve over time. They can't just stick to the scriptures from Jesus' time in order to explain all the scientific discoveries that the world community has gained since then, nor do they try to (unless they're a radical minority). When you can show, using the scientific method, a contradictory conclusion concerning the age of the planet, the roundness of the earth or the heliocenter-ness of our solar system, then of course the religious people will be forced to adjust to these new "facts" about the universe.

But even after all these scientific developments have occurred, religious people seem to hold onto their metaphysical stands concerning things such as the soul, divinity, afterlife, etc... Once upon a time, metaphysics were also used to explain whether or not the Earth was round, or if it was the center of the universe, but the scientific tradition was able to pull those issues out of the category of metaphysics, and into physical science, because people discovered a means by which those old claims could be tested, using the scientific method.

But these scientists were not able to hijack all the issues/debates under the realm of metaphysics and import them into their arena of science for dissection, and thus, people will continue to cling onto ideas such as human ethics coming from God, and will continue to do so unless science finds a way to convince everyone, using its methodology, that God doesn't exist, or that ethics can be explained by some scientific formula or whatever. Neither has happened, and I think we both know that it will never happen.

Well i agree that proving the nonexistance of god would be hard if not impossible (depending on the god) but i have to disagree about the ethics part. Ethics can indeed be explained and it has been explained. Sociology and psychology have given us explanations on both the personal and social level about what ethics are-where they come from-etc.. Religion is the obsolete version of the scientific method which these days does way more harm then good. The fact that many people still like to be religious does not mean that religion is better at explaining anything better than science, it just means there are many uninformed and/or irrational people out there and this is nothing new.

[jgk3]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Religion has played this game all along. When confronted by proof which contradicts its teaching it simply makes up a new fairytale. First they said the world is 4,000 years old-when we discovered dinasaurs and carbon dating it said yeh sure the world is older then 4,000 years but to god one year is many of our human years so...-they stated the world is flat but when proven wrong they said yeh sure its round but still it was made by god so um yeh we are mostly right anyways- they said the world was the center of the universe but when confronted by the evidence to the contrary they killed the man who provided the evidence. Those who started a religion would not recognize it today as their own because religion like everything else changes over time despite claiming all along that it does not. Any shmuck can say o things are the way they are because god wants them to be that way and there really is no argument against this because this statement cannot be proven or disproven. I give this shmuck the benefit of a dought thus i am agnostic not athiest, but i will trust my common sence and rational before i trust some dude in a dress wearing heavy xxxlery, a big beard and carrying a big stick.... If you have common sence and are capable of rational thought then chances are you dont need religion but if your lacking in these attributes then perhaps you would be better of doing things that other people tell you to do.

Yes, all religions are traditions which evolve over time. They can't just stick to the scriptures from Jesus' time in order to explain all the scientific discoveries that the world community has gained since then, nor do they try to (unless they're a radical minority). When you can show, using the scientific method, a contradictory conclusion concerning the age of the planet, the roundness of the earth or the heliocenter-ness of our solar system, then of course the religious people will be forced to adjust to these new "facts" about the universe.

But even after all these scientific developments have occurred, religious people seem to hold onto their metaphysical stands concerning things such as the soul, divinity, afterlife, etc... Once upon a time, metaphysics were also used to explain whether or not the Earth was round, or if it was the center of the universe, but the scientific tradition was able to pull those issues out of the category of metaphysics, and into physical science, because people discovered a means by which those old claims could be tested, using the scientific method.

But these scientists were not able to hijack all the issues/debates under the realm of metaphysics and import them into their arena of science for dissection, and thus, people will continue to cling onto ideas such as human ethics coming from God, and will continue to do so unless science finds a way to convince everyone, using its methodology, that God doesn't exist, or that ethics can be explained by some scientific formula or whatever. Neither has happened, and I think we both know that it will never happen.

[hipeter924]

Re: Religion and Atheism

The laws are derived from Judeo-Christian principles... both economic and moral laws. The parallels between American and ancient Greek philosophy are pretty apparent as well. I guess I'd be interested to see what a society based on atheist laws would look like. I believe Albania adopted state atheism at one point after WWII... I take it things didn't turn out too well.

A state built on Communism, not Atheism. It's like equating a secular society in which religion exists, with a theocracy; theocracy (which has a state religion and can deny other religions their freedom) and communism (which denies religious freedom) both being extremes. Secularism is better because it neither denies religious freedom (to an extent) nor does it force a state religion on people who do not agree with it or follow another faith. Secularism is the compromise between between state atheism (in the communist sense) and theocracy.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Religion has played this game all along. When confronted by proof which contradicts its teaching it simply makes up a new fairytale. First they said the world is 4,000 years old-when we discovered dinasaurs and carbon dating it said yeh sure the world is older then 4,000 years but to god one year is many of our human years so...

A year is something we have defined relative to our own solar system. Universally though, is time constant?

[Haykakan]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Religious traditions link a set of morals/ethics with the divine, as the divine is seen as the primary source of human existence or nature. Thus, if you argue to a believer that morals/ethics don't have to come from God since afterall, you're an agnostic who has those morals/ethics, they could turn around and say something like, "Yes, those things still come from God because you were created in God's image. Even if you turn away from Him spiritually, you cannot get rid of the moral/ethical attributes He imbued into the blueprint of your being".

Religion has played this game all along. When confronted by proof which contradicts its teaching it simply makes up a new fairytale. First they said the world is 4,000 years old-when we discovered dinasaurs and carbon dating it said yeh sure the world is older then 4,000 years but to god one year is many of our human years so...-they stated the world is flat but when proven wrong they said yeh sure its round but still it was made by god so um yeh we are mostly right anyways- they said the world was the center of the universe but when confronted by the evidence to the contrary they killed the man who provided the evidence. Those who started a religion would not recognize it today as their own because religion like everything else changes over time despite claiming all along that it does not. Any shmuck can say o things are the way they are because god wants them to be that way and there really is no argument against this because this statement cannot be proven or disproven. I give this shmuck the benefit of a dought thus i am agnostic not athiest, but i will trust my common sence and rational before i trust some dude in a dress wearing heavy xxxlery, a big beard and carrying a big stick.... If you have common sence and are capable of rational thought then chances are you dont need religion but if your lacking in these attributes then perhaps you would be better of doing things that other people tell you to do.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Religion and Atheism

In North America, one can argue that we live with values historically derived from Christianity (more specifically, protestantism) whether we like it or not. You can't erase all the centuries of our society being shaped and molded by it, just by stamping out the name of God wherever you find it.

The laws are derived from Judeo-Christian principles... both economic and moral laws. The parallels between American and ancient Greek philosophy are pretty apparent as well. I guess I'd be interested to see what a society based on atheist laws would look like. I believe Albania adopted state atheism at one point after WWII... I take it things didn't turn out too well.

[jgk3]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Sure there was ethics and moral before Christianity but one can argue where is that moral compass pointing to, as far as your values (Christian values) are concerned, be it you are religious or not.

In North America, one can argue that we live with values historically derived from Christianity (more specifically, protestantism) whether we like it or not. You can't erase all the centuries of our society being shaped and molded by it, just by stamping out the name of God wherever you find it.

[Eddo211]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Sure there was ethics and moral before Christianity but one can argue where is that moral compass pointing to, as far as your values (Christian values) are concerned, be it you are religious or not.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Religion and Atheism

In other words God (whether mortals believe exists or doesn't exist) isn't any less or more significant just because someone chooses to believe or not to believe.

It's like saying I don't believe there is a red elephant in the closet but if there is, whether you believe there is or isn't doesn't make the red elephant appear or disappear except only in your mind.

The source of morality and ethics has never been religion, as a matter of fact one can make a good argument that religion has effectively distorted our sence of morality and ethics to better fit it all into its own agenda. The real source comes from common sense. People have always been social animals thus if i do something bad to you i can surely expect the same in return and this may prevent me from being bad to others. If i do something nice for you then perhaps you will return the favor. The later part is not as dependable a responce as the former but they both are effective in shaping morals and ethics loooong before religion ever existed. So the short and sweet answer to the question is common sense.

So do you let your children learn "common sense" from developing their own morals and ethics by playing it out in the real world, or do you teach them that if they do something bad, they should expect something bad in return? Granted even if they are skeptical about your parenting, they will test your teachings for themselves and come to their own conclusions whether or not mommy and daddy were right.

Common sense isn't always that common.