Atheism and being Armenian

[Odysseus]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Search for anything on wikipedia, keep clicking the first link you find in the article (not stuff in perenthesis or italicized), you'll get to philosophy. Pretty much everything ends up there

wow, reminds me of the Where is hitler game i played back in highschool when my friends and i were light years ahead of the other kids in computer class. LOL. and wow you were right i found Philosophy in 5 pages, and i found Hitler in 3. So i win.

[Sip]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Philosophy still relies on logic and reason for sure. That's why scientists get Doctorates of Philosophy, Ph.D.! I made that up, but it makes sense, doesn't it.

Search for anything on wikipedia, keep clicking the first link you find in the article (not stuff in perenthesis or italicized), you'll get to philosophy. Pretty much everything ends up there

[Siggie]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

sure thing I'll give an account (soon) from one of my former professors on why the English Vowel Shift, though widely cited by English teachers and specialists, along with linguists... never happened :P

Well, we're on the same page I think, I guess by attitude I meant method of thought... See where language fails us, everything has to be neatly defined, which is why lots of specialists just use logic, the weird language thingy that uses terms like "union" and "intersection", mathematical symbols and whatnot in order to talk in a fashion everyone could agree with :S But I do find your reasons for choosing science over faith nice to read I think you'd agree with me though that you can't apply the scientific method with everything, i.e. some of the things I outlined before like: philosophy, aesthetics, language use. I think those things are driven by conventions and the breaking of them, leading to continual innovations that don't necessarily shed more light on why things are the way they are. They are subjects that have to do with a means of communication and expression. That said, they can interact with knowledge gained through science.

OOoooh it didn't happen? Even more interesting; Can't wait. I love having friends who are "experts" in such disparate fields.

Makes more sense as method of thought.
Yeah, scientist... we operationally define. Sorry! Besides it's something that I've come across a lot in my field, so I'm more or less familiar with how it's defined in the research.

Thanks! I hope it helps others understand me better.

Philosophy still relies on logic and reason for sure. That's why scientists get Doctorates of Philosophy, Ph.D.! I made that up, but it makes sense, doesn't it. Seriously though. I disagree on this one. Philosophy definitely requires critical thinking, logic, reason, and an evidence-based approach where possible.

Language, I'm not familiar with, but I believe one can study language scientifically as well. Like when you look at how a language developed, do you not search for features that support one explanation or another? It's model/theory testing in a similar was as we do with science.

Aesthetics would be a different story I suppose. Though there is research on what people find visually appealing! What they look at first in photos, what holds your attention, what's pleasant, etc. If you're only interested in one person's opinion about the aesthetics of something, then you just ask them and that's that, but if you wanted to know about a wider group or look for universally pleasing things or to understand why some things are more appealing than others, you start to need another approach at gathering information/data, i.e. science.

[jgk3]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

sure thing I'll give an account (soon) from one of my former professors on why the English Vowel Shift, though widely cited by English teachers and specialists, along with linguists... never happened :P

Well, we're on the same page I think, I guess by attitude I meant method of thought... See where language fails us, everything has to be neatly defined, which is why lots of specialists just use logic, the weird language thingy that uses terms like "union" and "intersection", mathematical symbols and whatnot in order to talk in a fashion everyone could agree with :S But I do find your reasons for choosing science over faith nice to read I think you'd agree with me though that you can't apply the scientific method with everything, i.e. some of the things I outlined before like: philosophy, aesthetics, language use. I think those things are driven by conventions and the breaking of them, leading to continual innovations that don't necessarily shed more light on why things are the way they are. They are subjects that have to do with a means of communication and expression. That said, they can interact with knowledge gained through science.

[Siggie]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

I think this whole debate boils down to how willing a person is to embrace a certain method of observation that leaves no claim so sacred that it can be exempt from doubt.. Some people will prioritize knowledge gained by the scientific method, others will prioritize beliefs which defy knowledge from the scientific method because they are passed down through tradition, and will only go as far as try to explain them using knowledge gained from science, without going as far as to subject their entire belief systems to critical, peer-reviewed analysis.

All I can offer to those who believe in things that require an effort of will to sustain them (i.e., will crumble/fade away if you don't rigidly hold onto their tenets) are the following questions...

Do you do it out of habit? If so, when did this habit start?
Do you do it out of fear? If so, what are you afraid of? Why is it so scary?
Do you do it because other people do it? If so, do you depend/hope on others actions in order to satisfy objectives that are part of your belief system?

What's funny is that you are not exempt from these questions, whether they apply to your beliefs you make explicit or to aspects of your daily life (i.e. how you select your preferences for things, people, places, activities...) if you believe in using the scientific method to uncover all the truth you seek. The scientific method is a tool, it is not part and parcel of critical thought, which is why one can think critically in subjects like philosophy, aesthetics and language. Critical thinking is an attitude and develops through continual application and with an ever-growing consciousness of subjects that can be subjected to it.

You're right Jeff (mostly : read clarification below about "critical thinking").

I apply this method to everything because I cannot make a rational argument to myself about why I should apply it to the things I study professionally, to products I purchase, to decisions about health, acquiring knowledge about things that interest me (life, the universe, and everything? ), but then not apply it to examining religious claims. Why should this one type of belief be exempt (especially when it makes claims about the natural world which puts it within our ability to seek supporting evidence)?

I'm a big ol' nerd in the sense that I want to know everything and if I want to learn, I need to be able to discriminate between good and bad information (accuracy). I have a problem with religion discouraging reason, discouraging doubt, discouraging asking questions, discouraging seeking evidence, etc. Faith is believing without evidence and that's not something I can do. I can't pretend to believe and that's what I would have to do.

Besides, when I had questions about life, the universe, and everything (2nd time... anyone?), I sought information everywhere. I didn't know any better. I read plenty of things dealing with the supernatural, I looked at religion, etc. The only satisfying answers (i.e. rational, supported by evidence) and sometimes the only answers period, came from application of the scientific method.

Science is not the only way to be a critical thinker, but science does teach you critical thinking. Critical thinking is not an attitude it's not value-laden. It is a method of thought. You can apply it to everything, just like you can the scientific method, however it does involve the application of reason and logic. Critical thinking also involves questioning and doubt.

P.S. Can you send me/point me to something about the "great vowel shift" in English (what it is and why it happened) that's accessible to the intelligent non-linguist?

[jgk3]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

I think this whole debate boils down to how willing a person is to embrace a certain method of observation that leaves no claim so sacred that it can be exempt from doubt.. Some people will prioritize knowledge gained by the scientific method, others will prioritize beliefs which defy knowledge from the scientific method because they are passed down through tradition, and will only go as far as try to explain them using knowledge gained from science, without going as far as to subject their entire belief systems to critical, peer-reviewed analysis.

All I can offer to those who believe in things that require an effort of will to sustain them (i.e., will crumble/fade away if you don't rigidly hold onto their tenets) are the following questions...

Do you do it out of habit? If so, when did this habit start?
Do you do it out of fear? If so, what are you afraid of? Why is it so scary?
Do you do it because other people do it? If so, do you depend/hope on others actions in order to satisfy objectives that are part of your belief system?

What's funny is that you are not exempt from these questions, whether they apply to your beliefs you make explicit or to aspects of your daily life (i.e. how you select your preferences for things, people, places, activities...) if you believe in using the scientific method to uncover all the truth you seek. The scientific method is a tool, it is not part and parcel of critical thought, which is why one can think critically in subjects like philosophy, aesthetics and language. Critical thinking is an attitude and develops through continual application and with an ever-growing consciousness of subjects that can be subjected to it.

[Siggie]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

A man is lost without a faith.....in other words he needs to believe in something higher, it could be anything.

Do Atheist believe in spirits?

Why do you think man needs to believe in something higher. I'm assuming by something higher you mean a god. But, does man need this? Why? For what?

I can't speak for all atheists... There are certainly some that call themselves atheists, but they aren't skeptics so they don't apply the same evidence-based approach to everything. They may not have arrived at their lack of belief by that route either. So, I guess I'll just talk about myself then. We'll play ask the non-theist (not crazy about the word atheist). So, no I don't believe in spirits and I would venture to say that the vast majority of atheists probably do not either. I think this idea of immortality-- that something of us survives after death (other than our works and family of course) has been a common belief in history and in numerous religions (e.g. it was lacking in buddhism and the religion was modified much later to add the idea of rebirth) because it perhaps a source of comfort. The human mind is very capable of fooling the human... we believe in things we want to believe in, very easily. I think the idea that when we die, we die and that's it, is a frightening one to many, particularly if they've been raised as children to believe that human beings are immortal by means of a "soul." I don't find it frightening though... it's just how it is. If anything it gives my life more importance because this is it.

[Eddo211]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

What do you mean by faith in this context?

A man is lost without a faith.....in other words he needs to believe in something higher, it could be anything.

Do Atheist believe in spirits?

[Siggie]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Would you marry an Armenian Christian in a church? Would you have a priest attend his funural?

Yes to the Armenian, no to the christian, it depends to the church. Next question is irrelevant; he wouldn't want a priest attending his funeral except as a "guest."

Faith is very important......Religion is very dangerous.

One of those seemingly contradictory statements... Making me think, Eddo?
What do you mean by faith in this context?

[Eddo211]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Faith is very important......Religion is very dangerous.