Atheism and being Armenian

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

See Siggie, Jinx understood what I was doing and didn't take offense to it, lol.

Your comparison of the Black struggle in America compared to the Armenian struggle is a good one. Except, how many Black people in America speak their ancestor's language or have a connection to their African roots and culture? Most African Americans don't know where in Africa their ancestors were even taken from.

Aside from some success due to performers/entertainers, black intellectuals have been in decline since the times of Martin Luther King. What I mean is, what people see on TV isn't a reflection of the real life struggle that the black communities face in America (except for maybe the TV show Cops).

The Black community in Detroit actually uses the Armenian church and community centre for their functions. If you want to criticize the Armenian church, what exactly is your criticism? Is it the criticism of the church or that some Armenians that go to church are just there for show but they aren't being true to the community? Is that what you meant by facade?

[Jinx]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Though I don't wish to get involved in this particular discussion again, I just want to clear up a few inaccuracies, hopefully for the final time.

I am pretty confident that you know perfectly well that I am not a Turk, and you just threw that out there as a way to get under my skin and draw me back (which, to some extent, worked, because here I am). I also never came here with the intent to attack the Armenian church, quite to the contrary, I understand very well the historical context of the church and in what ways it has served us well. Comments about the church in relation to Armenians was if it was an institution we've perhaps grown out of having a need for, and if we have not, if we ever would. I don't think my tone ever changed from 'moderate' to 'militant,' what changed was the topic itself, so my responses changed to reflect that.

As for why would an Armenian in their right mind come here "just to attack the Armenian church," well, as I stated, I never attacked the Armenian church, but let us replace "attack" with "criticize." Why would someone of a particular ethnicity attack one of the institutions that is considered so important to maintaining the bonds of that ethnicity? Well, first off I will say that I don't believe anything is beyond reproach, anything can and should be criticized. And, more importantly, the reason for this criticism is to help a group move forward, to advance. I can think of a similar case with the black community. Undoubtedly, the Black Church has been the single most important institution for African Americans in the United States, and almost all major black leaders have come out of the church. Would that makes someone "not black" to question if this is an outdated institution that maybe blacks should not be (pardon the pun) be putting their faith in? Actually, several black intellectuals just do this, and I don't think they are not in their right mind, as you would suggest.

I never got angry or frustrated because I wasn't getting the answers I hoped for, as you put it; I got bored and uninterested because I didn't get a discussion that was being conducted by intellectually honest and mature adults. This time, I think I really have said all that I need to and I doubt I'll be returning to this particular thread. though, call me a cynic, I will be surprised if more insults are not directed towards me after this post or, at the very least, someone gets all up in arms that I dared to talk about the black community in the same breath as the Armenian one. Just a hunch.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

A true atheist don’t believe in God and goes quietly about it.
^Actually you just insulted all Atheists right there (while claiming I was insulting you by presenting what all Atheists actually believe), atheism is a non-belief, nor is there such thing as a 100% Atheist, most Atheists are Agnostic to some extent.

How would one be less than 100% atheist? I've never met half an atheist. What "traits" (not sure that's the right word) did you have in mind?

See above as I don't condone nor favor atheist ideology but perhaps Peter can enlighten you.

See, when people tried to answer the original question posed, there was backlash because Jinx didn't get the answers he was maybe hoping to get. Then he changed his moderate view into a militant view (attack on the Armenian church).

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Sarcasm again instead of "meanness" again? He must be a trolling turk (clearly an insult, no?), it can't be that its frustrating to go in pointless circles.

Can you please, please, please tell me why any Armenian in their right mind would come here just to attack the Armenian church? If Armenians don't belong to a church, nobody forces them to go. If these are Armenians posting here, is Glendale really this clueless?

[Siggie]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

That's what I thought, another Turk trolling the forums. Good day.

Sarcasm again instead of "meanness" again? He must be a trolling turk (clearly an insult, no?), it can't be that its frustrating to go in pointless circles.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Obviously I was not referring to genies. Obviously no one believes in superheroes or science fiction. And now you're talking about Armenian parents and grandparents, when what I've been talking about is the church this whole time. Every time I correct some misapprehension of my point, there crops up just another misapprehension. I'm not even having a conversation anymore, I just have to keep clarifying already clear statements for people who are either incapable of understanding my, I'd like to think, rather simple points, or who have no interest in having an actual conversation or debate and just throw out silly comments to goad me on. Either way, it's all become rather boring and not a very good use of my time. I'll leave you all to it.

That's what I thought, another Turk trolling the forums. Good day.

[Jinx]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

So you're referring to genies? That's my concept of wish-thinking, lol. Wish-thinking isn't necessarily a product of belief in the supernatural, it's a product of denying reality.

I'll take your suggestion a step further and list some things that make children grow into believing in the supernatural:

Super Heroes
Comic Books
Science Fiction
Santa Claus (this guy does make wish-thinking come true until the child realizes he/she has been lied to)
Tooth Fairy

Now, how many of the above were promoted by Armenian parents or grandparents? These are Western creations. So let's look for things that are promoted by Armenians that you don't believe should exist.

For example, I had to play along with the other kids in school because I knew there was no Santa... my parents didn't feed me B.S.

Obviously I was not referring to genies. Obviously no one believes in superheroes or science fiction. And now you're talking about Armenian parents and grandparents, when what I've been talking about is the church this whole time. Every time I correct some misapprehension of my point, there crops up just another misapprehension. I'm not even having a conversation anymore, I just have to keep clarifying already clear statements for people who are either incapable of understanding my, I'd like to think, rather simple points, or who have no interest in having an actual conversation or debate and just throw out silly comments to goad me on. Either way, it's all become rather boring and not a very good use of my time. I'll leave you all to it.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

I think you're confusing what I'd like to see as a natural social change with something I would impose. I would never "impose" atheism on anyone... that's rather pointless. I'm not talking about policies or regimes, I'm talking about wanting people themselves to grow out of a need for wish-thinking and a belief in the supernatural.

So you're referring to genies? That's my concept of wish-thinking, lol. Wish-thinking isn't necessarily a product of belief in the supernatural, it's a product of denying reality.

I'll take your suggestion a step further and list some things that make children grow into believing in the supernatural:

Super Heroes
Comic Books
Science Fiction
Santa Claus (this guy does make wish-thinking come true until the child realizes he/she has been lied to)
Tooth Fairy

Now, how many of the above were promoted by Armenian parents or grandparents? These are Western creations. So let's look for things that are promoted by Armenians that you don't believe should exist.

For example, I had to play along with the other kids in school because I knew there was no Santa... my parents didn't feed me B.S.

[Jinx]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

I think you're confusing what I'd like to see as a natural social change with something I would impose. I would never "impose" atheism on anyone... that's rather pointless. I'm not talking about policies or regimes, I'm talking about wanting people themselves to grow out of a need for wish-thinking and a belief in the supernatural.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

I apologize, it was late and since the royal wedding had just happened I thought the above line was in reference to that. Now I see what you mean. Yea, I always felt that particular part of the wedding ceremony was kind of strange.

It's not so strange if you consider that our nobility has interesting roots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_nobility

One thing to note:

The aristocratic tradition in Armenia suffered another blow during the Bolshevik regime, when the nobility was dissolved as a social class and the noblemen underwent systematic oppression. Many representatives of the Armenian aristocracy were repressed, sentenced to prisons and work camps, or simply executed. Those who survived against all odds were forced to hide their aristocratic origins by changing family names and obliterating their family histories. Only a very few managed to preserve their family traditions by leaving the Communist regime and moving to other countries.

I've gone over this countless times now, the religious baggage is not benign. it does have an effect on enough people that I feel it is causing harm and slowing progress. We need to jettison that in favor of something that doesn't do that.

So you feel that either the religious have to become not religious or vice versa and there simply can't be a secular America. I believe that was the exact conditions that existed prior to the Bolshevik take over of Russia.

You seem to think that being an atheist means you suddenly don't appreciate grand architecture or art. On the contrary I think devotional art is some of the most beautiful art there is, and architecturally I think cathedrals are often the most beautiful buildings. Probably the most amazing place I've ever stood inside was the Chartres cathedral in France. But appreciating these places, and indeed wanting to preserve them, has everything to do with a love of culture and wanting to respect their context in history, and nothing to do with being religious. When I say I would, ideally, want Armenians (and everyone else) to move away from religion, that does not include getting into bulldozers and destroying churches. That much should be clear.

I also seem to think that Atheism among Armenians began with the Bolshevik regime and prior to that, Armenians were very well connected to their roots (or rather, their historical family lineage)