Atheism and being Armenian

[Jinx]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Seeing two people vow to be king and queen as they prepare to take on the world isn't a facade.

I apologize, it was late and since the royal wedding had just happened I thought the above line was in reference to that. Now I see what you mean. Yea, I always felt that particular part of the wedding ceremony was kind of strange.

I've gone over this countless times now, the religious baggage is not benign. it does have an effect on enough people that I feel it is causing harm and slowing progress. We need to jettison that in favor of something that doesn't do that.

You seem to think that being an atheist means you suddenly don't appreciate grand architecture or art. On the contrary I think devotional art is some of the most beautiful art there is, and architecturally I think cathedrals are often the most beautiful buildings. Probably the most amazing place I've ever stood inside was the Chartres cathedral in France. But appreciating these places, and indeed wanting to preserve them, has everything to do with a love of culture and wanting to respect their context in history, and nothing to do with being religious. When I say I would, ideally, want Armenians (and everyone else) to move away from religion, that does not include getting into bulldozers and destroying churches. That much should be clear.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

I was hoping ArmSurvival would have responded since at least we had some meaningful conversation going. But in the meantime, I may as well correct inaccurate readings of my posts, which is what I seem to spend most of my time doing. It is actually quite exhausting, and I can't really believe that I'm this difficult to understand.

I'm ignoring the reference to the royal wedding, as I have NO idea how that relates to Armenians or atheism. As for every other example you gave, I absolutely in no way suggested that celebrations, family gatherings or a love of community was a facade. I was responding to what ArmSurvival said about how the church is more or less just an institution that facilitates all those things... whether or not people actually believe in the teachings of the church. Dropping the facade, in the context of what I was saying, was in relation to Armenians who don't really believe in the church's message possibly, eventually, leaving that institution behind and having celebrations, family gatherings, love of culture, etc., for secular and simply humanist reasons without all the religious baggage. I thought this was pretty clear in my response.

What reference to the royal wedding? Have you ever been to an Armenian wedding? I wrote that prior to the media coverage on the royal wedding (which in my mind was no doubt a lot of political mumbo jumbo on part of the British). Regardless, an Armenian ceremony puts the royal wedding to shame in terms of meaning and symbolism as the bride and groom are crowned. I'm just wondering, are people incapable of blocking out the "religious baggage" that they don't believe in? You're asking for the majority to cater to the minority. How do you suppose Armenians leave all these institutions behind? You are aware that if I were to cut and paste the names of all the Armenian churches in the world, it would fill up dozens of pages right? I can pretty much be traveling to any major city in the world and find an Armenian church/community. Even if you aren't religious, the shear magnificence and architecture of many of our churches is reason enough to proud that the Armenian church is something that is associated with our people.

[Jinx]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Seeing two people vow to be king and queen as they prepare to take on the world isn't a facade. Gathering family and friends for baptism in celebration of their new born isn't a facade. Having a place for the community to gather and mourn for the loss of one of its members isn't a facade. Armenians are secular in a sense but many of these traditions are part of our culture and unites the community. If there are two things Armenians love, it's feasting and celebration. How do you propose replacing these traditions that are intricate parts of society? What do you mean by more humanist? Armenian culture is as humane as humanity can get.

I was hoping ArmSurvival would have responded since at least we had some meaningful conversation going. But in the meantime, I may as well correct inaccurate readings of my posts, which is what I seem to spend most of my time doing. It is actually quite exhausting, and I can't really believe that I'm this difficult to understand.

I'm ignoring the reference to the royal wedding, as I have NO idea how that relates to Armenians or atheism. As for every other example you gave, I absolutely in no way suggested that celebrations, family gatherings or a love of community was a facade. I was responding to what ArmSurvival said about how the church is more or less just an institution that facilitates all those things... whether or not people actually believe in the teachings of the church. Dropping the facade, in the context of what I was saying, was in relation to Armenians who don't really believe in the church's message possibly, eventually, leaving that institution behind and having celebrations, family gatherings, love of culture, etc., for secular and simply humanist reasons without all the religious baggage. I thought this was pretty clear in my response.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

I agree.

You can change Armenian culture to be more humanist, sort of in the same vein of many Western and Northern European cultures, but you bring all the degradation that comes along with it.

Plus, even if you aren't necessarily 'religious' in the classical sense of the term, there's something that seems more respectful of the dead in the Hokehankisd service or the singing of "Ashkharh Amenayn" than a bunch of people reading self-centered eulogies about the deceased person.

Movies like "Grown Ups" puts nonsensical ideas in people's heads. I know lots of Armenians aren't that attached to the community in North America, but even odars have more respect for certain traditional things. That's the real shame. The funny part is when odars do come to Armenian events, they love the culture. It's like a secret society to them.

[yerazhishda]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

My daughter finished Phd philosophy in St.Andrews university Scotland this year. She is real beliver. Obviously, you are to young, but all will come later.

Are you responding to the original poster?

[artour]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

My daughter finished Phd philosophy in St.Andrews university Scotland this year. She is real beliver. Obviously, you are to young, but all will come later.

[yerazhishda]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

People can gather out of non-religious traditions to. You don't need to baptize to celebrate the birth of a child... Baby showers? Birthdays? You can mourn someone without involvement of the church. There are lots of secular funerals and weddings. You can do all of this without a prayer. These are things people celebrate universally. And mourning death is universal as well.

What is your picture of an ideal Armenia? One in which the AAC would be abolished entirely? An Armenia without Christianity?

Side question: Is atheism originally a Western idea, and if so, should this be a part of Armenian culture which is decidedly Oriental?

[yerazhishda]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Seeing two people vow to be king and queen as they prepare to take on the world isn't a facade. Gathering family and friends for baptism in celebration of their new born isn't a facade. Having a place for the community to gather and mourn for the loss of one of its members isn't a facade. Armenians are secular in a sense but many of these traditions are part of our culture and unites the community. If there are two things Armenians love, it's feasting and celebration. How do you propose replacing these traditions that are intricate parts of society? What do you mean by more humanist? Armenian culture is as humane as humanity can get.

I agree.

You can change Armenian culture to be more humanist, sort of in the same vein of many Western and Northern European cultures, but you bring all the degradation that comes along with it.

Plus, even if you aren't necessarily 'religious' in the classical sense of the term, there's something that seems more respectful of the dead in the Hokehankisd service or the singing of "Ashkharh Amenayn" than a bunch of people reading self-centered eulogies about the deceased person.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

The "Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance, and I'll kill you if you dare to go around saying otherwise" types? I remember, ages ago, I did compare Kanadahye to such persons, the ones that live in north America or western Europe, gaining all the material advantages they can from those societies, while secretly holding them in contempt.

Material advantages my ass. Our ancestors owned small kingdoms before western dim witted royals decided to invade our motherland.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

This is quite common among the dim witted reactionary religious types and i am sad to see Kanadahye being this way.

The "Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance, and I'll kill you if you dare to go around saying otherwise" types? I remember, ages ago, I did compare Kanadahye to such persons, the ones that live in north America or western Europe, gaining all the material advantages they can from those societies, while secretly holding them in contempt.