Atheism and being Armenian

[Haykakan]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Well said indeed! Btw i just nuked a spirit master and i swear i saw his soul leave his body.

[Federate]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Religiosity or spirituality per se is not a requirement for being a good Armenian. However, religious institutions and concepts have been vital in the shaping of the Armenian ethos from antiquity to the present day. Support for or participation with this religious institution does not require the individual to hold any belief in the supernatural and it does not require the individual to be spiritual in any sense.

The reason for my conclusion is because I believe the Armenian Apostolic Church, despite being the world's oldest Christian institution, is first and foremost a national and cultural institution more so than a religious institution. This sounds like a paradox until we analyze what the church has actually done and continues to do. Its a national institution because its main role throughout its history has been to preserve Armenian nationhood by gathering our political organization when Armenia was under foreign occupation or even when Armenians built up their diaspora communities. It provided us with tiny cloisters of national sovereignty in foreign and hostile lands. It is the main platform for our secular political strength, especially in the diaspora.

The Armenian Apostolic church is also a cultural institution because is preserves our cultural relics such as our language (Grapar), history, ancient pre-Christian customs, artistic symbols and motifs, architecture, sentiments, etc. The church is the largest and most capable institution we have that connects us to our very distant ancestors such as the Urartians, Mitanni, Hurrians, and others. Even Armenian schools across the world have their foundations in the Armenian church- This was true in pre-Communist Armenia and continues to be true in virtually all diaspora communities. The church perpetuates our cultural and national aspirations which maintains Armenian culture as a living, breathing entity in constant evolution.

It also functions as a place where the local Armenian community, no matter where it is, can muster its secular political organization. Our church does not force its congregation to believe in specific interpretations of scripture. Armenian priests don't attempt to convert people like many other Christian sects do. Our church is first and foremost a national, cultural and political institution, but those who want to go deeper into the actual theology are also free to pursue that knowledge. The pragmatic and secular appeal of the church is just as important, if not more so, than its religious appeal. For these reasons the church is an extremely dynamic entity which has wide appeal to both believers and non-believers (like myself).

So to go back to your original question- Not only do I believe that one can be Armenian and atheist, I also believe one can work with and through the Armenian Church while maintaining a lack of belief. Rejecting religion is one thing, but rejecting the Armenian Apostolic Church is something completely different. Thats my take.

Beautifully said!! My views exactly.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Certainly someone can be an Armenian who is also an atheist, such as myself, but my question to you all is if you believe religiosity is something necessary (or at least extremely important) to the Armenian experience? Why or why not?

Religiosity or spirituality per se is not a requirement for being a good Armenian. However, religious institutions and concepts have been vital in the shaping of the Armenian ethos from antiquity to the present day. Support for or participation with this religious institution does not require the individual to hold any belief in the supernatural and it does not require the individual to be spiritual in any sense.

The reason for my conclusion is because I believe the Armenian Apostolic Church, despite being the world's oldest Christian institution, is first and foremost a national and cultural institution more so than a religious institution. This sounds like a paradox until we analyze what the church has actually done and continues to do. Its a national institution because its main role throughout its history has been to preserve Armenian nationhood by gathering our political organization when Armenia was under foreign occupation or even when Armenians built up their diaspora communities. It provided us with tiny cloisters of national sovereignty in foreign and hostile lands. It is the main platform for our secular political strength, especially in the diaspora.

The Armenian Apostolic church is also a cultural institution because is preserves our cultural relics such as our language (Grapar), history, ancient pre-Christian customs, artistic symbols and motifs, architecture, sentiments, etc. The church is the largest and most capable institution we have that connects us to our very distant ancestors such as the Urartians, Mitanni, Hurrians, and others. Even Armenian schools across the world have their foundations in the Armenian church- This was true in pre-Communist Armenia and continues to be true in virtually all diaspora communities. The church perpetuates our cultural and national aspirations which maintains Armenian culture as a living, breathing entity in constant evolution.

It also functions as a place where the local Armenian community, no matter where it is, can muster its secular political organization. Our church does not force its congregation to believe in specific interpretations of scripture. Armenian priests don't attempt to convert people like many other Christian sects do. Our church is first and foremost a national, cultural and political institution, but those who want to go deeper into the actual theology are also free to pursue that knowledge. The pragmatic and secular appeal of the church is just as important, if not more so, than its religious appeal. For these reasons the church is an extremely dynamic entity which has wide appeal to both believers and non-believers (like myself).

So to go back to your original question- Not only do I believe that one can be Armenian and atheist, I also believe one can work with and through the Armenian Church while maintaining a lack of belief. Rejecting religion is one thing, but rejecting the Armenian Apostolic Church is something completely different. Thats my take.

[Siggie]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Feelings require a stimulus. Emotions are generated from the spiritual conscience. Emotions aren't experienced, they are reflections of the conscience.

These are conclusions without reasoned arguments from which to draw them.
Please provide support for your conclusion that emotions are generated from the "spiritual conscience." That'll probably require first supporting the existence of a "spiritual conscience" first.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Every emotion needs a stimulus. We don't experience emotions in a vacuum.
The rest about whether everyone can show these emotions or that they're depressed are simply your own assumptions. There is nothing that speaks to that in the article (which wasn't a scientific source anyway) and you haven't presented anything else to support this.

Feelings require a stimulus. Emotions are generated from the spiritual conscience. Emotions aren't experienced, they are reflections of the conscience.

Other people experience emotions that the subject portrays.

[Siggie]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

It's hard wired but has to be stimulated. Positive emotions are harder to achieve as the author points out. Why are there medications for depression if joy and happiness are hard wired? Haven't you ever heard of the saying smiles are contagious?

"A spiritual person is someone who is capable of experiencing joy in play, forgiveness after having been wronged, compassion with others who have been derailed, awe when in communion with others or the splendor of nature."

Is everyone capable? Probably. Does everyone show those traits? Of course not. Why? Because their spiritual conscience is depressed.

Every emotion needs a stimulus. We don't experience emotions in a vacuum.
The rest about whether everyone can show these emotions or that they're depressed are simply your own assumptions. There is nothing that speaks to that in the article (which wasn't a scientific source anyway) and you haven't presented anything else to support this.

I know what they are saying but they mention that the higher power is like a place holder. Think of it like this:

If you want to communicate/swap between the spiritual conscience and the corresponding emotion, you need a place holder.

Bottom line is still the same... It's a sufficient, but not necessary condition.
He says belief in a higher power "may be a placeholder." It doesn't say anywhere that "you need a placeholder."

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

No, it's not the same. You can describe how people of each of those categories might be different, but you can't do it with this one, why? Is it because all of those things, compassion, joy, forgiveness, awe, etc are universal? Hard-wired?

It's hard wired but has to be stimulated. Positive emotions are harder to achieve as the author points out. Why are there medications for depression if joy and happiness are hard wired? Haven't you ever heard of the saying smiles are contagious?

"A spiritual person is someone who is capable of experiencing joy in play, forgiveness after having been wronged, compassion with others who have been derailed, awe when in communion with others or the splendor of nature."

Is everyone capable? Probably. Does everyone show those traits? Of course not. Why? Because their spiritual conscience is depressed.

That was the science-y part! Look they're saying can be experienced by religion which is why many consider it essential, but really it's broader than that;it's that that out of ego experience [that's so f-in hard to articulate] achieved by whatever means. I.e., religion is not necessary!

I know what they are saying but they mention that the higher power is like a place holder. Think of it like this:

If you want to communicate/swap between the spiritual conscience and the corresponding emotion, you need a place holder.

God = Happiness;
Happiness = Smile;
Smile = God;

The Atheist would have to use more advanced logic like XOR

Happiness=Happiness^Smile;
Smile=Happiness^Smile;
Happiness=Happiness^Smile;

LOL

[Siggie]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

I said being in contact or having knowledge of religion will affect you because of the environment you're in. It's like being Russified, Turkified or Americanized. Same concept.

No, it's not the same. You can describe how people of each of those categories might be different, but you can't do it with this one, why? Is it because all of those things, compassion, joy, forgiveness, awe, etc are universal? Hard-wired?

"In contrast, positive emotions-excepting perhaps pride-tend to transcend the ego. In joy, forgiveness, compassion, and awe, the ego's boundaries temporarily crumble. Spirituality happens when we get over ourselves, if only for a moment. This may be why many people consider belief in a ‘higher power' essential to spirituality. On strict cognitive terms, a literal belief in a higher power may be ‘hoke,' to use a term Vaillant relishes. With a more liberal definition, though, it does make sense. The ‘higher power' may just be a placeholder for anything beyond the confines of conscious egocentric self-awareness. On the inside, these out-of-ego forces include all the massive work being done by our brains that we, by necessity, will never be able to articulate. On the outside, these forces include our social embeddedness among other humans."

If your ego is so big that you think there is nothing bigger than you, then you're more likely to be power hungry (this is why many dictators are considered to be gods). In Mao's China for example, everyone would have a pictures, posters and statues of Mao with gifts or sacrifices presented to his image. This wasn't thousands of years ago either.

That was the science-y part! Look they're saying can be experienced by religion which is why many consider it essential, but really it's broader than that;it's that that out of ego experience [that's so f-in hard to articulate] achieved by whatever means. I.e., religion is not necessary!

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pan_NHLE4vM

This video is about J3ws preparing America for Communism

The Atheist movement is so J3ws can't be targeted for being J3ws since they'll be Atheists. Damn they are smart

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Fine so instead of helping develop (originally you were saying being raised in religion changes you) now it's we're born "whole" in that way but it's suppressed by atheism? Then wouldn't it be irrelevant if someone was raised with religion? It would be more important what happened later. Point out where the article supports that suppression idea.
It says positive emotions helps get away from "self" which s/he thinks is necessary to feel spiritual as defined there. It does say, specifally!, that it doesn't require religion.

I said being in contact or having knowledge of religion will affect you because of the environment you're in. It's like being Russified, Turkified or Americanized. Same concept.

"In contrast, positive emotions-excepting perhaps pride-tend to transcend the ego. In joy, forgiveness, compassion, and awe, the ego's boundaries temporarily crumble. Spirituality happens when we get over ourselves, if only for a moment. This may be why many people consider belief in a ‘higher power' essential to spirituality. On strict cognitive terms, a literal belief in a higher power may be ‘hoke,' to use a term Vaillant relishes. With a more liberal definition, though, it does make sense. The ‘higher power' may just be a placeholder for anything beyond the confines of conscious egocentric self-awareness. On the inside, these out-of-ego forces include all the massive work being done by our brains that we, by necessity, will never be able to articulate. On the outside, these forces include our social embeddedness among other humans."

If your ego is so big that you think there is nothing bigger than you, then you're more likely to be power hungry (this is why many dictators are considered to be gods). In Mao's China for example, everyone would have a pictures, posters and statues of Mao with gifts or sacrifices presented to his image. This wasn't thousands of years ago either.