Atheism and being Armenian

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KanadaHye replied

04-26-2011, 02:28 PM
Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Originally posted by Siggie View Post

That's not how it works. So, you don't believe in Zeus, so you have to provide evidence that he doesn't exist? That's proving a negative. You don't seek evidence for every single thing you don't believe in. Have you "disproven" the existence of pink unicorns?

So back to your hair that was on fire. Nobody will believe that your hair was on fire because it's your word against mine. I can prove that your hair was not on fire (there is no damage, it has healed). After a long period of time, the evidence is gone so you can't prove that is was on fire. I have more proof of a negative than you do of the truth. There were people that thought all swans were white until they saw black swans with their own eyes. Why does it have to be a pink unicorn? Do you believe in white unicorns?
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Siggie replied

04-26-2011, 01:33 PM
Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Originally posted by Yeznik View Post

I believe that at one time there was a religion that followed Zeus. I don't believe Zeus exists because there is not credible historical reference of him ever existing. I believe in the Christian God. Atheists and I might agree about Zeus and other gods but it is up to Atheism to provide proof for the next "No God" belief.

That's not how it works. So, you don't believe in Zeus, so you have to provide evidence that he doesn't exist? That's proving a negative. You don't seek evidence for every single thing you don't believe in. Have you "disproven" the existence of pink unicorns?

Originally posted by Yeznik View Post

Let me explain how and why Atheism is a religion. For example Zen Buddhism is atheistic, meaning they don't believe in God, but categorically Zen Buddhism is a religion.

There's no set of beliefs among atheists and it doesn't seek to explain the Universe. Buddhism (original) has a set of principles,but doesn't seek to explain the world either. For that reason I've expressed doubt about whether it should be classified as such either.

Originally posted by yerazhishda View Post

Who/what/how was original matter created? The Big Bang must have had material/energy to start with, no? Until someone can find the answer, we are both working on faith regarding the metaphysical nature of the universe.

Euf... It just goes on and on... I point out this wasn't the topic of the thread, but we keep going nevertheless...

It makes ZERO sense to ask what came before the big bang. I don't think we know that any matter was "created" exactly. We know the universe expanded in explosion like fashion. We learn more and more all the time. Science seeks to discover the answers to these questions (ie truth) and it is self-correcting. As there's more observations, more data, more experimentation, etc we gain information and we revise theories.

Religion, on the other hand, doesn't seek to discover anything new. There's an explanation that hasn't changed since the texts were written (eh, before that even I guess). It's not meant to change. If we did find answers to these questions (if the past is any indication), it's doubtful still that it will change. There's no correction. Religion is not flexible and it does not seek new information.

The fact that we lack an answer to a particular question, just means we have more work to do. More to learn... It doesn't make sense to say if you can't offer an alternative explanation backed by evidence, then you must accept this other unsupported conclusion.

E.g. If you can't explain how this pencil appeared on my desk then we must accept the explanation offered by my coworker that it was constructed and carried there by a team of very tiny tree elves.
Damn, that reminded me of the Keebler elves...
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yerazhishda replied

04-26-2011, 12:17 PM
Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Who/what/how was original matter created? The Big Bang must have had material/energy to start with, no? Until someone can find the answer, we are both working on faith regarding the metaphysical nature of the universe.
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Yeznik replied

04-26-2011, 12:16 PM
Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Originally posted by Siggie View Post

I see. Do you believe Zeus exists? Would you say your lack of belief in Zeus is a strong conviction? Does that seem to you to meet the definition of religion?
Going to guess probably not. You don't believe in any other gods than your Christian god right? Atheists are not different than you. It's the exact same for them, except they go just one god further. That's it. I don't wake up in the morning or go to bed at night thinking "god doesn't exist." It doesn't come up at all in my day to day life or thoughts. I live as you would in regards to some obscure religion. You don't think about it!

I believe that at one time there was a religion that followed Zeus. I don't believe Zeus exists because there is not credible historical reference of him ever existing. I believe in the Christian God. Atheists and I might agree about Zeus and other gods but it is up to Atheism to provide proof for the next "No God" belief.

Let me explain how and why Atheism is a religion. For example Zen Buddhism is atheistic, meaning they don't believe in God, but categorically Zen Buddhism is a religion.
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Siggie replied

04-26-2011, 11:45 AM
Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Originally posted by Yeznik View Post

Atheism is "something that is believed especially with strong conviction" it is a faith based initiative which can constitute a religion based on - a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices - . Meaning there is no proof for Atheism one must believe to be an Atheist based on a certain religious or individual convictions.

I see. Do you believe Zeus exists? Would you say your lack of belief in Zeus is a strong conviction? Does that seem to you to meet the definition of religion?
Going to guess probably not. You don't believe in any other gods than your Christian god right? Atheists are not different than you. It's the exact same for them, except they go just one god further. That's it. I don't wake up in the morning or go to bed at night thinking "god doesn't exist." It doesn't come up at all in my day to day life or thoughts. I live as you would in regards to some obscure religion. You don't think about it!
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Yeznik replied

04-26-2011, 09:44 AM
Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Originally posted by Siggie View Post

You're missing the most important part of your argument... Explain how that supports your argument.
How does that make not subscribing to a religion a religion and faith-based?

Atheism is "something that is believed especially with strong conviction" it is a faith based initiative which can constitute a religion based on - a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices - . Meaning there is no proof for Atheism one must believe to be an Atheist based on a certain religious or individual convictions.
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Siggie replied

04-26-2011, 09:29 AM
Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Originally posted by Yeznik View Post

Sure,

From the definition that you used -

Faith
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction ;especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

Religion

a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
� re�li�gion�less adjective

You're missing the most important part of your argument... Explain how that supports your argument.
How does that make not subscribing to a religion a religion and faith-based?
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gkv replied

04-26-2011, 09:27 AM
Re: Atheism and being Armenian

according to CS Lewis, a lunatic cannot put out the sun by scribbling the word 'darkness' on the walls of his cell.
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Yeznik replied

04-26-2011, 09:24 AM
Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Originally posted by Siggie View Post

Support that position.

Sure,

From the definition that you used -

Faith
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction;especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

Religion

a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
� re�li�gion�less adjective
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KanadaHye replied

04-26-2011, 09:24 AM
Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Originally posted by Siggie View Post

Yep, my scarred skin. You start these hypotheticals and then don't connect them with the argument you're trying to support with them.
It is not out of the realm of science. If you make claims about the natural world, that is in the realm of science. If you want to say God exists, but he does not interact with the world in any way, then you're out that realm. Is that what you believe? Or do you believe in a god that influences the world, answers prayers, performs miracles, etc?

Not being able to observe something directly doesn't mean we can't observe evidence of its existence. E.g. black holes, dark matter, neutrinos, etc.

Your skin wasn't scarred, only your hair was singed. Don't worry, it will renew itself.

Why do you as a scientist feel the existence or non existence of a non-provable entity somehow affects your work (I really find this strange among the science community since this is a rather new development)

My beliefs are not for discussion but I can tell you I don't believe in a personal deity. The world is influenced by our own action or inaction.
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