Atheism and being Armenian

[Siggie]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Are you sure they let you teach? lol

Thanks. You're a classy guy.

Yeah, we know how it's done in America... and there is no need to bring that trash into Armenian society.

You had such an offended tone in your response to Jinx about facades, yet you can call the non-religious celebrations and mourning of other people "trash"?
Let me take a moment to enjoy that warmth and compassion.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

People can gather out of non-religious traditions to. You don't need to baptize to celebrate the birth of a child... Baby showers? Birthdays? You can mourn someone without involvement of the church. There are lots of secular funerals and weddings. You can do all of this without a prayer. These are things people celebrate universally. And mourning death is universal as well.

Yeah, we know how it's done in America... and there is no need to bring that trash into Armenian society.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Point you to scientific studies of what? Shamanistic healing? You went from studying states of consciousness straight to the woo. Do I look like google? Here: I'll point you to whatever you'd like.

Are you sure they let you teach? lol

[Siggie]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Seeing two people vow to be king and queen as they prepare to take on the world isn't a facade. Gathering family and friends for baptism in celebration of their new born isn't a facade. Having a place for the community to gather and mourn for the loss of one of its members isn't a facade. Armenians are secular in a sense but many of these traditions are part of our culture and unites the community. If there are two things Armenians love, it's feasting and celebration. How do you propose replacing these traditions that are intricate parts of society? What do you mean by more humanist? Armenian culture is as humane as humanity can get.

People can gather out of non-religious traditions to. You don't need to baptize to celebrate the birth of a child... Baby showers? Birthdays? You can mourn someone without involvement of the church. There are lots of secular funerals and weddings. You can do all of this without a prayer. These are things people celebrate universally. And mourning death is universal as well.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

First off I want to thank you for this post. It actually addresses what I was interested in talking about, and you make some very good points. I understand and accept everything you said about the church and the role it plays in furthering our political goals. I guess my next question would be if there would ever be a time when the church wasn't necessary anymore, or if a new secular institution would take its place. If we accept that the religiosity could be, mostly, seen as just a facade, would there be a time when Armenians would be comfortable simply dropping that facade, putting the the black cowled spokes-persons of the AAC behind them, and banding together around some secular institution? This would not be for a very long time, if ever, but instead of banding around a religious institution for solidarity, I know I would probably be far more active in the community if it was centered around a more secular or humanist message. But that's just me.

Seeing two people vow to be king and queen as they prepare to take on the world isn't a facade. Gathering family and friends for baptism in celebration of their new born isn't a facade. Having a place for the community to gather and mourn for the loss of one of its members isn't a facade. Armenians are secular in a sense but many of these traditions are part of our culture and unites the community. If there are two things Armenians love, it's feasting and celebration. How do you propose replacing these traditions that are intricate parts of society? What do you mean by more humanist? Armenian culture is as humane as humanity can get.

[Siggie]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Point me to scientific studies.... most likely it's left for philosophical or religious studies. I'm sure it's extremely well studied and those in the "circle" know the exact effects of recreational drugs on the brain (out of body experiences).

While Eastern cultural activities like Yoga and maybe (who knows) Shamanistic Healing become popular activities, I'll assume there will be value in making scientific comparisons to convince people that they have an effect on the human state of consciousness.

Point you to scientific studies of what? Shamanistic healing? You went from studying states of consciousness straight to the woo. Do I look like google? Here: I'll point you to whatever you'd like.

[Jinx]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Religiosity or spirituality per se is not a requirement for being a good Armenian. However, religious institutions and concepts have been vital in the shaping of the Armenian ethos from antiquity to the present day. Support for or participation with this religious institution does not require the individual to hold any belief in the supernatural and it does not require the individual to be spiritual in any sense.

The reason for my conclusion is because I believe the Armenian Apostolic Church, despite being the world's oldest Christian institution, is first and foremost a national and cultural institution more so than a religious institution. This sounds like a paradox until we analyze what the church has actually done and continues to do. Its a national institution because its main role throughout its history has been to preserve Armenian nationhood by gathering our political organization when Armenia was under foreign occupation or even when Armenians built up their diaspora communities. It provided us with tiny cloisters of national sovereignty in foreign and hostile lands. It is the main platform for our secular political strength, especially in the diaspora.

The Armenian Apostolic church is also a cultural institution because is preserves our cultural relics such as our language (Grapar), history, ancient pre-Christian customs, artistic symbols and motifs, architecture, sentiments, etc. The church is the largest and most capable institution we have that connects us to our very distant ancestors such as the Urartians, Mitanni, Hurrians, and others. Even Armenian schools across the world have their foundations in the Armenian church- This was true in pre-Communist Armenia and continues to be true in virtually all diaspora communities. The church perpetuates our cultural and national aspirations which maintains Armenian culture as a living, breathing entity in constant evolution.

It also functions as a place where the local Armenian community, no matter where it is, can muster its secular political organization. Our church does not force its congregation to believe in specific interpretations of scripture. Armenian priests don't attempt to convert people like many other Christian sects do. Our church is first and foremost a national, cultural and political institution, but those who want to go deeper into the actual theology are also free to pursue that knowledge. The pragmatic and secular appeal of the church is just as important, if not more so, than its religious appeal. For these reasons the church is an extremely dynamic entity which has wide appeal to both believers and non-believers (like myself).

So to go back to your original question- Not only do I believe that one can be Armenian and atheist, I also believe one can work with and through the Armenian Church while maintaining a lack of belief. Rejecting religion is one thing, but rejecting the Armenian Apostolic Church is something completely different. Thats my take.

First off I want to thank you for this post. It actually addresses what I was interested in talking about, and you make some very good points. I understand and accept everything you said about the church and the role it plays in furthering our political goals. I guess my next question would be if there would ever be a time when the church wasn't necessary anymore, or if a new secular institution would take its place. If we accept that the religiosity could be, mostly, seen as just a facade, would there be a time when Armenians would be comfortable simply dropping that facade, putting the the black cowled spokes-persons of the AAC behind them, and banding together around some secular institution? This would not be for a very long time, if ever, but instead of banding around a religious institution for solidarity, I know I would probably be far more active in the community if it was centered around a more secular or humanist message. But that's just me.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Oh hell no... There's a chapter on states of consciousness in EVERY single intro psych textbook and it's something I've always taught. There's tons on altered states of consciousness. Don't assume!

Point me to scientific studies.... most likely it's left for philosophical or religious studies. I'm sure it's extremely well studied and those in the "circle" know the exact effects of recreational drugs on the brain (out of body experiences).

While Eastern cultural activities like Yoga and maybe (who knows) Shamanistic Healing become popular activities, I'll assume there will be value in making scientific comparisons to convince people that they have an effect on the human state of consciousness.

[Siggie]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Well, it would first come from defining the word "spirit". When I say spirit, I'm referring to a higher or more energetic level of the conscience. The reason these concepts aren't studied is because Western science doesn't recognize the value of studying altered states of consciousness. Western science only recognizes the value of studying the "normal".

Oh hell no... There's a chapter on states of consciousness in EVERY single intro psych textbook and it's something I've always taught. There's tons on altered states of consciousness. Don't assume!

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

These are conclusions without reasoned arguments from which to draw them.
Please provide support for your conclusion that emotions are generated from the "spiritual conscience." That'll probably require first supporting the existence of a "spiritual conscience" first.

Well, it would first come from defining the word "spirit". When I say spirit, I'm referring to a higher or more energetic level of the conscience. The reason these concepts aren't studied is because Western science doesn't recognize the value of studying altered states of consciousness. Western science only recognizes the value of studying the "normal".