Armenian lesbians/gays

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

On this specific point I partly sympathize because there are a lot of Armenian guys who are buffoons for one reason or another. However on average the women are not much better in caliber, if at all. So either your friends are exceptions to the rule or you are biased towards them because they’re your friends.

This one is spot on.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

You know, maybe I'm in a bit of a privileged position because the women I know are very decent women who've been hurt by guys who are buffoons. They are not of the sort who want to get pregnant to hook a guy. On the contrary, if they are alone it's because they are too honest about what they want in life. With one friend, in fact, her fiance came to her at the 11th hour, after the reception hall had been rented and the wedding dress bought, and told her he wasn't ready to get married.

Regarding my friend who decided to have a baby, I think this will help clarify. She was approaching 40 and after a lot of thinking and deliberating, decided she wanted to have a baby. Then she met and started dating a guy. The relationship was going well, but she told him, "Listen I want to have a baby, and before I met you, I went through all the medical clearances to get IVF via sperm donation. I don't want you to be pressured into staying in this relationship if it isn't what you want. If you want to still be together, realize that having a child is my priority right now. I don't expect you to be part of it in any way." So, the guy said, "Well, why go through IVF? I'd be happy to be your donor." And she got pregnant. But the original conditions held. She wasn't ready to marry him because the relationship was new. She didn't want to obligate him beyond his volunteering to father a baby. She was clear that she expected no financial support from him whatsoever, and that he was free to walk away whenever he needed to. The baby carries her last name. As it turns out, their relationship is continuing to evolve, and it may very well be that they will marry some day. But if they do, it will be for the right reasons, and her biological clock will have had nothing to do with it. It's a win-win situation, afaic.

If people aren't finding appropriate partners in life, there are many different reasons for it. I know that lots of women are misguided in their approach, as are many men. Also, there is too much emphasis put on marriage. I'm not saying that marriage is bad or not important, but when it becomes primary, and it is given as the only legitimate way of being in the world, then the quality of the relationship is compromised.

My husband and I met when we were in our late 30's. Actually, we had grown up in the same community, but were both kind of on the outer edges, and we both had strong opinions about each other. He thought I was a snooty xxxxx, and I kind of was because of all the times I'd been burned by guys who objectified me and couldn't see me as someone with a mind and with feelings. I thought he was loud and annoying, and he was because he was tired of having to keep his opinions to himself about the stupidity of some aspects of our culture. He was tired of women who were after him for his financial potential (a physician). We were both very focused on our education and determined to marry well or not marry at all. He had dated many women. I had dated many men. We both knew exactly what we didn't want by the time we met. We were introduced by friends who had nothing to do with the community and who didn't know we already knew each other. Our connection as adults was easy and immediate, just two people putting their hopes and dreams on the table. We had both been living independently for many years already. And we lived together for about 2 years before we got married. Our families, both pretty traditional in their ideas, were so happy we had gotten together, that they had absolutely no problem with our living together. A formal wedding was actually superfluous in our case, and all things being equal, we probably would have foregone the pomp and circumstance because it really didn't change anything for us, except put us back about 15K. He is a very generous man. I am a very frugal woman. That's an excellent combination because there isn't much that I need, beyond my good health and the basics, to keep me happy in life. I don't need manicures or pedicures. I don't need a fancy car or designer clothes. I don't really care to dine out much, as I love to cook and prefer to do it myself. I've already traveled the world, and if I travel again, it will be to expose my kids to new cultures and ideas. It will be for them first, and for me because of them.

You see? I'm a Westernized woman, too. But I'm not like KK. I wasn't a virgin when I got married, and I'd had plenty of experiences. But that didn't prevent me from having the kind of deep emotional connection and forever commitment to my husband and children. My husband and I are equally educated. I never looked down my nose at him. I never had a reason to. And he wanted a fully formed person as a life partner. He could have had lots of opportunities to meet and marry women who were far more focused on their physical appearance and material comforts and privileges. But that's not what he wanted.

It's really important to figure out what it is that you don't want, and what it is that you want. If people are ending up alone in life, it may have something to do that is internal to them. They may have some agency in how they are perceived by others. And all these things can be worked through.

I feel like I went off on a tangent, but I'm hoping that I've de-satanized myself a little bit.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Flamenkita... how ever you want to slice it, western life isn't meant for family. I am certain I'll never experience what it will feel like to be a grandfather and I feel robbed of a life that could have been so much more fulfilling. None of it was my fault, in fact I was financially and emotionally prepared to start a family in my mid 20's. Since that didn't materialize due to the "party" and drama scene that so many Armenians girls were wrapped up in, I decided to put things on a back burner and have probably done a lot of dumb things with money and time that should have went towards a family. If you haven't noticed, most Armenian guys aren't into "relationships"... we don't believe in wasting our time with immature western pass times.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Flamenkita... how ever you want to slice it, western life isn't meant for family. I am certain I'll never experience what it will feel like to be a grandfather and I feel robbed of a life that could have been so much more fulfilling. None of it was my fault, in fact I was financially and emotionally prepared to start a family in my mid 20's. Since that didn't materialize due to the "party" and drama scene that so many Armenians girls were wrapped up in, I decided to put things on a back burner and have probably done a lot of dumb things with money and time that should have went towards a family. If you haven't noticed, most Armenian guys aren't into "relationships"... we don't believe in wasting our time with immature western pass times.

You said something important just now: "Armenian guys aren't into "relationships"." Are you saying that relationships are immature Western pass-times?

Maybe that is the mentality that needs to change. How are you understanding "relationship"? In my opinion, a relationship is a mutual connection that both parties work to maintain and grow from. It's a state of being in which each person recognizes the subjectivity of the other person and behaves in ways that he or she would hope the other person to behave.

If Armenian guys aren't into relationships, then what ARE they into?

Clearly, if you are feeling so bitter and jaded about your prospects for having a family, then that is how it will continue to be. Also, it seems to me that you were connecting with the wrong Armenian girls and perhaps rejecting the ones that might have been more interesting and stable (albeit a little less "attractive" in the standard sense).

I was never involved in the party and drama scene, and that is why I never dated any Armenian men until I met and married my husband. The Armenian guys I met seemed, on the one hand, to go to the party scenes to meet women and then judge the women they were meeting at the party scene. There's a lot of prejudice that goes on. It's like they want it both ways. They want the "party and drama" outer appearance but the "nice family girl" inner self. Well, it doesn't seem to work like that.

I also don't know why you say Western life isn't meant for family. Sure, it may be less geared toward enmeshment and perforated boundaries, but that doesn't mean one can't create the kind of family they want to have.

My feeling, in reading some of the posts by the guys here, is that they want their personal boundaries to be solid, but others' boundaries to be flexible. You don't want to change how you think and feel, but you want others to agree to your terms. Everything can't always be on your terms.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

I think what Armenian guys aren't into is experiencing their own vulnerability. And in an individualistic society, these vulnerabilities become more visible. You don't have your family name or reputation to speak for you. You don't have a ready-made social network where you're respected or liked because of who you are rather than how you behave. You can't rely on everyone else believing what you believe or doing what you are doing. You represent no one. No one represents you. This is an extremely liberating point of departure for any person. And it's profoundly anxious-making. If you aren't who you thought you were, or who "they" said you were, then who are you?

I think many Armenian guys, and girls, too, are facing an existential crisis. It's the difference between being no thing and being nothing. It's more work to become someone when you don't have age-old guidelines to mark your path. But, as I have asked many times, why is my brand of Armenian identity any less valid than the one the church or the community center is trying to push on me? Finding my own sources of Armenian Identity has been difficult, but in the end it is mine and it is infinitely more interesting and enriching than any political agenda out there.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

You said something important just now: "Armenian guys aren't into "relationships"." Are you saying that relationships are immature Western pass-times?

Maybe that is the mentality that needs to change. How are you understanding "relationship"? In my opinion, a relationship is a mutual connection that both parties work to maintain and grow from. It's a state of being in which each person recognizes the subjectivity of the other person and behaves in ways that he or she would hope the other person to behave.

Nothing needs to change. We can pretend we're interested in those things but we don't, we're men. If a man is trying to connect with you on your level then he must have some feminine subconscious. Femininity and masculinity have a lot to do with psychology.

When I say relationship, I mean the pretend marriage game that many women want to play. We don't care to waste 2 or 3 years tied down playing games and I know many good guys (odars) that have wasted years of investment in women that dropped them as soon as something better came along or because they finished their schooling and their "interests" changed.

I think what Armenian guys aren't into is experiencing their own vulnerability. And in an individualistic society, these vulnerabilities become more visible. You don't have your family name or reputation to speak for you. You don't have a ready-made social network where you're respected or liked because of who you are rather than how you behave. You can't rely on everyone else believing what you believe or doing what you are doing. You represent no one. No one represents you. This is an extremely liberating point of departure for any person. And it's profoundly anxious-making. If you aren't who you thought you were, or who "they" said you were, then who are you?

You're wrong. You represent the school you went to (I'm a Michigan Wolverine!!). You represent the state that you pay taxes for. You represent the company that you work for/owns you. Your represent the brand labels you wear and/or the type of car you drive. It's just that unlike a family or community, you're being used by the interests of people who don't care about you. In the end, you're just a used up commodity or resource.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Nothing needs to change. We can pretend we're interested in those things but we don't, we're men. If a man is trying to connect with you on your level then he must have some feminine subconscious. Femininity and masculinity have a lot to do with psychology.

When I say relationship, I mean the pretend marriage game that many women want to play. We don't care to waste 2 or 3 years tied down playing games and I know many good guys (odars) that have wasted years of investment in women that dropped them as soon as something better came along or because they finished their schooling and their "interests" changed.

That's because they weren't in a real relationship with the women. If they were, probably the signs of things not working out or interests changing were there before the dropping happened, but no one bothered to take the time to face it or talk about it.

Things can change after marriage, too! Better the wrong match splits before the knot is tied, don't you think?

So, you aren't interested in mutuality. You aren't interested in seeing the other person's point of view, her hopes, dreams, fears, vulnerabilities. And yet you want that person to commit to spending her life with you? How does that make sense? And then to suggest that "those things" are somehow effeminate or emasculating! My goodness!!! Did you parents teach you anything about social discourse? Did your mom give you any advice on how to be around women?

My 8 year old daughter is probably more savvy about relationships than I was when I was 18! She already knows things like if someone doesn't say hello or want to hang out on any given day, it may just be that they need some space, and it's best to just give them that space.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

That's because they weren't in a real relationship with the women. If they were, probably the signs of things not working out or interests changing were there before the dropping happened, but no one bothered to take the time to face it or talk about it.

Things can change after marriage, too! Better the wrong match splits before the knot is tied, don't you think?

So, you aren't interested in mutuality. You aren't interested in seeing the other person's point of view, her hopes, dreams, fears, vulnerabilities. And yet you want that person to commit to spending her life with you? How does that make sense? And then to suggest that "those things" are somehow effeminate or emasculating! My goodness!!! Did you parents teach you anything about social discourse? Did your mom give you any advice on how to be around women?

My 8 year old daughter is probably more savvy about relationships than I was when I was 18! She already knows things like if someone doesn't say hello or want to hang out on any given day, it may just be that they need some space, and it's best to just give them that space.

No she taught me how women should be around men.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

No she taught me how women should be around men.

And how well is that working for you?

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

And how well is that working for you?

Pretty well. Once the opportunity arises, I'll be next in line for king.