London Terror Bombings Kill 37, Wound 700

[anoush719]

Let's all take a deep breath together okay?
Iiiiiiiiiin... okay now hold it... exhale

Let's try and be a little nicer to each other please?

Took my breather, had some spring water, now I'm back. This isn't a question of people "being nice to each other." This is a question that is bound to arouse a lot of strong feelings. I bet you didn't think you were posting such a HOT topic, did you?

On that note, for clarification purposes... Anoush jan, I didn't mean "you missed the point" in the way it may have seemed to you now that I look at it again. I just meant that I didn't feel like my question was answered. Sorry if it seemed confrontational or anything like that. Just trying to understand your point of you.
"I'm just here to learn" Difference being that I mean it.

Good, can't ask for more than that. Everyone should come with that attitude. I had no problem with you questioning my statements and I tried to convey to you everything I felt was pertinent in explaining why I feel the way I do.

[anoush719]

What I do not like is people who come to the United States, enjoy all of its luxuries, and then turn around the criticize its flaws and mistakes. I have several friends stationed in Iraq. I also did not support our decision to go in there but the decision was not mine, does that mean I am going to sit and criticize and bad mouth my country and its ally England when my friends are risking their lives in Iraq?

Translation of what G-whatever said:

What I do not like is people who come to turkey, enjoy all of its luxuries, and then turn around the criticize its flaws and mistakes trying to stir up a civil war. I have several friends in the turkish army. I also did not support our decision to genocide Armenians, but the decision was not mine, does that mean I am going to sit and criticize and bad mouth my country and its ally Germany when my friends are risking their lives in the turkish army? After all, it's World War I and these people are a threat to our security.

[Siamanto]

Disclaimer: I feel sorry for the lives of Serbs, Iraqis, US and UK citizens. However, I totally understand Anoush, Anonymouse and Pamooshjian.

I can't believe you guys are sitting here trying to justify what has occured in London.

I made a different reading of what Anoush, Anonymouse and Pamooshjian wrote. In a nutshell, I believe that they were denouncing the hypocrisy of conveniently silencing and censoring news about the Iraqi/Serbian deaths and thus belittling the value of Iraqi of Serbian lives. The hypocrisy of advertising the value of the lives of those killed by the enemy as if it was a marketing campaign.
Yes, we live in a country where information is masterfully and quite overtly manipulated and controlled!

I am not a supporter of many of US and NATO policies but to sit here and say that you do not care if people are dying, whether it be a US, British, or Iraqi citizen is just absurd.

Would you care to provide us links to threads where you denounced the US, British and NATO atrocities? Thanks!

It's easy to sit in the safety of your little home and type out your ignorant and biased opinions when you have not lost a family member, relative, or friend to war or terrorism. Human life is human life.

How about you? Can't the same be said about you...and me?
By the way, how that would argue in favor of your thesis/position?

Also mistakes are a part of human nature. Has the US and its allies made many mistakes? Sure. But to say that you do not feel any sympathy for the lives lost due to a retaliation, a cowardly retaliation, is just not right.

Very hypocritical and as you say "biased." When the US/UK/NATO destroy a country it is only a "mistake" and you call "terrorist" and "evil" a bunch of desperate and angry and maybe "confused" youngsters who retaliate against the atrocities of those "kind???" and all "humane" institutions who only make "mistakes."
Also, when US/UK pilots drop tons of bomb, from the comfort of their airplanes and in the middle of night i.e. like thieves they are - of course????? - courageous heroes. When others risk their lives it is only a "cowardly????" retaliation!!!!! Too much Fox News, I would say!
I have to admit that you're not biased?????

And as for Anoush719, you must think you're very clever with your "shock and awe" reference. I'd like for you and your family members to have lived in Iraq at the time of Sadam's regime, when he beat, tortured, raped, gased, and killed hundreds, if not thousands of people, and then see you come on here and just mouth off on stuff you've read and heard in the media. What have you done to give back to the country that has given you freedom, the ability to live a relatively safe life, and the chance to pursue prosperity and happiness to a degree that you could not find in other third world nations?

Please consider diversifying your sources of information; Fox News is not the only one!
Again, we live in a country where information is masterfully and quite overtly manipulated and controlled!



Note: I have chosen to auto censor the words "*urk" or "*urkish" because it is commonly perceived as unpleasant and offending, evokes unpleasant emotions and imagery and is pregnant with immoral and evil connotations!

[Siamanto]

Disclaimer: I feel sorry for the lives of Serbs, Iraqis, US and UK citizens. However, I totally understand Anoush, Anonymouse and Pamooshjian.

You show no sympathy for the countless lives of young children that were lost in the FBI building daycare because of what happened in Waco?

The FBI building bombing was a planned murder. That is all there is to it. As for Waco, that could have been avoided by both sides. Take your own house. You have the right to possess arms but if a full division of FBI arrive at your doorstep for one reason or another, do you not try to come outside and talk and negotiate? Or do you barricade yourself with your guns and go into a stand-off and escalate the situation.

How that is relevant?
I'm not religious, yet I have no sympathy towards Muslims and categorically avoid their company - I consider myself an "ethnic Christian." But that is a personal issue and I admit it as such. Nevertheless, I do not allow myself to deny their human rights and one should admit that the West - most of all Anglo-Saxons - have a total disrespect of Muslims' human rights, unless they are doing their dirty work...like the Bosnians, the *urks, Ben Laden and Saddam in the past.
Let's face the facts!

If a simple police officer arrives and knocks on your door, and you have nothing to hide, do you confront him, or tell him to f-ck off and respect your privacy and civil rights?

Why not? I may do it politely! Yes, my Privacy and Civil Rights are of utmost relevance. Why would I tolerate a brutal chimp invade my space? Abuse of power is abuse of power!
In any case, different people react differently. Please keep in mind that we are humans, not robots! There are no norms!

Since you are so up to date on current events and foriegn policies, maybe you'd like to share with us the reasons for our bombing of Kosovo. What did we gain? or even Iraq, people said we went in for the oil. Where is that oil? Have you seen our gas prices. We have poured billions of dollars into that country to help build a new government and an infrastructure to help the people get back on their feet and what do they do on a daily basis? Bomb our troops and their own fellow Iraqi citizens. Do you forget all of the beheadings? The word "barbaric" should be reserved for that....

It does not take a deep knowledge of "current events and foriegn policies" to figure out that
1- They attacked the Serbs for better control of the region and weaken the allies of Russia
2- They attacked, destroyed and looted Iraq in order to better control and continue to loot its natural resources

You make it seem as if the Serbs were doing nothing, just going about their daily lives and out of nowhere the US and NATO decide to bomb them.

The Serbs were fighting for their lands and freedom against the remains of the Ottoman Empire. They have suffered the way Armenians and many other nations have suffered - for the same reasons! Have you ever heard of *urks?

Why don't you state the other side of the story? The reason I am commenting on your posts is because you pick a side and point out flaws. Anyone can sit here and point out mistakes. I do not see you running for office and taking responsibily for those decisions and I don't see you bringing up ideas on how to solve problems.

I agree, one should be fair; but can you please provide us links to posts where you present the other side of the story? Thanks!

It's easy for you to sit and criticize difficult decisions when you are not held responsible for them.

Again, where are you - and I - sitting?

The fault in your judgement is that you are letting emotion take over rational thinking.

With all due respect, one can easily have the same impression of you!

If that is the basis of your thinking, then heck, lets just carpet bomb every Turk, every other Muslim, heck lets throw the Jews in there for good mesaure, and be done with it. As Siggie said, two wrongs do not make a right. And if you're so upset about our foreign policy, why not get up and move to another nation? And for the record, no one on here said that some people are more deserving of sympathy than others. The killing of humans of any ethnicity or religion is a bad thing.

Maybe not, I don't know! But, have you tried to apply the same logic to the destruction and looting of Iraq and the killing of Serbs?

PS. As for the *urks, why not?

What I do not like is people who come to the United States, enjoy all of its luxuries, and then turn around the criticize its flaws and mistakes. I have several friends stationed in Iraq

And you are not emotional and biased? What is the point? What is the relevance? Because people are enjoying a certain comfort they should sell their soul! Do you value freedom of speech and human dignity? Are you buying their freedom and dignity with material comfort? Is that morally acceptable?
You should travel more often! In many many countries people enjoy luxuries and are allowed to criticize the flaws and mistakes of the system with greater freedom!

. I also did not support our decision to go in there but the decision was not mine, does that mean I am going to sit and criticize and bad mouth my country and its ally England when my friends are risking their lives in Iraq?

I have an ethical dilemma : Is it ethically acceptable to feel sympathy towards individuals who willingly travel thousands of miles with the sole aim of destroying a country and killing its citizens?
I agree with Anonymouse!



Note: I have chosen to auto censor the words "*urk" or "*urkish" because it is commonly perceived as unpleasant and offending, evokes unpleasant emotions and imagery and is pregnant with immoral and evil connotations!

[Siggie]

Guys please. While everyone is obviously welcome to their opinions and beliefs, let's please try to respect each other.

Disagreement is fine, but please don't start insulting one another.

[karoaper]

I think there are two extreme points of view presented here.

On one end, there's GSTracer.
I'd like to say that the ability to recognize injustice and the desire to correct it must not be held hostage by political/national/religious biases and allegiances. However, by and large, Americans today are very biased when it comes to world events. The reason I think is that most get their facts and news from corporate media, which disseminates more emotional bias than facts. When there's a suicide attack in Israel, the news cover it for half a week. However, an operation by Israeli army that results in 100s of Palestinian deaths gets a measly ticker on the bottom if any mention at all. So, my friend, you need to expand your moral horizons. The notion that you must support your soldiers no matter what is a very sad and dangerous one. I believe it falls under American stoicism. It's sad because it propagates the culture of blind support and fanatical nationalism, which is why tragedies like Vietnam and Korea lasted so long. Maybe if all the parents and friends of soldiers stood up and said "xxxx this war we want our boys and girls back", those wars would last much shorter. Sadly, the only sobering thing to Americans is the sky-rocketing death toll among American troops. As far as this war is concerned. IT IS IN NO WAY A MISTAKE. Simply put, after 9/11 Americans were scared. As the saying goes, best offense is defense, so Bush's masters realized that now was the time for their old dream of dealing once and for all with Iraq. There were no WMDs, there was no link to Al-Qaida, and today we're getting facts that Bush's masters and Blair's masters, which might be the same folks, knew that very well and had their eyes on Iraq for different reasons. Whether it's oil, or whether it's an alternative home-base for ME presence to Saudi Arabia. The billions of dollars made is in fact a HUGE reason. The war was a very neat way to funnel the money from US treasury into the coffers of Haliburton and other industrial and military giants. So, I completely agree with the other side, that when you watch through tears the news of 47 children,women, men blown up in London, your unbiased eyes should be filled with even more tears for the untold thousands of innocent Iraqis who have died for NO HUMANE REASON whatsoever. Personally however -- and this is where I think I'm less callous than the other side -- I certainly do feel sadness and utter dismay at the world and it's brutal key players (which includes Israel and Bin Laden and Wolfowits, and others). I do not feel one bit of joy at more loss of innocent life. Because the same argument for such joy can back up joy for loss of Serbian life, loss of Iraqi life, loss of Bosnian life, loss of Armenian life, even loss of Turkish innocent children and women and men. The callousness I speak of is an emotional reaction to the intellectual facts that I just now stated. So while I completely agree that the hypocrisy of viewing one life as precious and another life as an expandable price of war is mind boggling, I will not stop valuing the life of those in London or New-York simply because the people in those places do not value the life of those in Iraq and Serbia or anywhere else. You're not tipping the scales of justice by taking your support of human life from one region and putting it another. You must value it and mourn its loss anywhere.

But, I must warn, I'm no softy. I would send money to ASALA if they limited they operations to surgically dispatching scum like Erdogan. I also have no problems with defending your religious and national freedom. This is why I don't view Iraqi resistance (not the crazy Islamists who bomb local populace and behead innocent folks) as an abomination. It is a very natural and even valiant reaction to foreign occupation, which is what this war is about. And as was correctly mentioned, Iraq is a cesspool of Islamist crazies thanks to this war. Have you ever thought that perhaps Saddam was such a sadistic bastard to make sure the crazies never took hold of an inch in Iraq. Also, you need to realize that there are a dozen of such dictatorships in world today, including Saudi Arabia, Vietnam, North Korea. If dictatorship was reason enough for war, today the entire globe should be enveloped in war.

[Siamanto]

We know EXACTLY what he means. "My country right or wrong" says it all. Subliminal messages via the idiot box, meat puppet programming through the education system, something they put in the water and too many John Wayne movies. We know his kind.

Television, the Drug of the nation by Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy.

Click to listen!


one nation
under God
has turned into
one nation under the influence
of one drug

[chorus:]
Television, the drug of the Nation
Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation
(2x)

T.V., it
satellite links
our United States of Unconsciousness
Apathetic therapeutic and extremely addictive
The methadone metronome pumping out
150 channels 24 hours a day
you can flip through all of them
and still there's nothing worth watching
T.V. is the reason why less than 10 per cent of our
Nation reads books daily
Why most people think Central Amerika
means Kansas
Socialism means unamerican
and Apartheid is a new headache remedy
absorbed in it's world it's so hard to find us
It shapes our mind the most
maybe the mother of our Nation
should remind us
that we're sitting too close to...

[Chorus:]
Television, the drug of the Nation
Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation
(2x)

T.V. is
the stomping ground for political candidates
Where bears in the woods
are chased by Grecian Formula'd
bald eagles
T.V. is mechanized politic's
remote control over the masses
co-sponsored by environmentally safe gases
watch for the PBS special
It's the perpetuation of the two party system
where image takes precedence over wisdom
Where sound bite politics are served to
the fastfood culture
Where straight teeth in your mouth
are more important than the words
that come out of it
Race baiting is the way to get selected
Willie Horton or
Will he not get elected on...

[Chorus:]
Television, the drug of the Nation
Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation
(2x)

T.V., is it the reflector or the director?
Does it imitate us
or do we imitate it
because a child watches 1500 murders before he's
twelve years old and we wonder why we've created
a Jason generation that learns to laugh
rather than to abhor the horror
T.V. is the place where
armchair generals and quarterbacks can
experience first hand
the excitement of video warfare
as the theme song is sung in the background
Sugar sweet sitcoms
that leave us with a bad actor taste while
pop stars metamorphosize into soda pop stars
You saw the video
You heard the soundtrack
Well now go buy the soft drink
Well, the onla cola that I support
would be a union C.O.L.A.(Cost Of Living Allowance)
On television

[Chorus:]
Television, the drug of the Nation
Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation
(2x)

Back again, "New and improved"
We return to our irregularly programmed schedule
hidden cleverly between heavy breasted
beer and car commercials
CNN ESPN ABC TNT but mostly B.S.
Where oxymoronic language like
"virtually spotless", "fresh frozen"
"light yet filling" and "military intelligence"
have become standard
T.V. is the place where phrases are redefined
like "recession" to "necessary downturn"
"Crude oil" on a beach to "mousse"
"Civilian death" to "collateral damages"
and being killed by your own Army
is now called "friendly fire"
T.V. is the place where the pursuit
of happiness has become the pursuit of
trivia
Where toothpaste and cars have become
sex objects
Where imagination is sucked out of children
by a cathode ray nipple
T.V. is the only wet nurse
that would create a cripple

[Chorus:]
Television, the drug of the Nation
Breeding ignorance and feeding radiation
(4x)

[GSTracer05]

I think there are two extreme points of view presented here.

On one end, there's GSTracer.
I'd like to say that the ability to recognize injustice and the desire to correct it must not be held hostage by political/national/religious biases and allegiances. However, by and large, Americans today are very biased when it comes to world events. The reason I think is that most get their facts and news from corporate media, which disseminates more emotional bias than facts. When there's a suicide attack in Israel, the news cover it for half a week. However, an operation by Israeli army that results in 100s of Palestinian deaths gets a measly ticker on the bottom if any mention at all. So, my friend, you need to expand your moral horizons. The notion that you must support your soldiers no matter what is a very sad and dangerous one. I believe it falls under American stoicism. It's sad because it propagates the culture of blind support and fanatical nationalism, which is why tragedies like Vietnam and Korea lasted so long. Maybe if all the parents and friends of soldiers stood up and said "xxxx this war we want our boys and girls back", those wars would last much shorter. Sadly, the only sobering thing to Americans is the sky-rocketing death toll among American troops. As far as this war is concerned. IT IS IN NO WAY A MISTAKE. Simply put, after 9/11 Americans were scared. As the saying goes, best offense is defense, so Bush's masters realized that now was the time for their old dream of dealing once and for all with Iraq. There were no WMDs, there was no link to Al-Qaida, and today we're getting facts that Bush's masters and Blair's masters, which might be the same folks, knew that very well and had their eyes on Iraq for different reasons. Whether it's oil, or whether it's an alternative home-base for ME presence to Saudi Arabia. The billions of dollars made is in fact a HUGE reason. The war was a very neat way to funnel the money from US treasury into the coffers of Haliburton and other industrial and military giants. So, I completely agree with the other side, that when you watch through tears the news of 47 children,women, men blown up in London, your unbiased eyes should be filled with even more tears for the untold thousands of innocent Iraqis who have died for NO HUMANE REASON whatsoever. Personally however -- and this is where I think I'm less callous than the other side -- I certainly do feel sadness and utter dismay at the world and it's brutal key players (which includes Israel and Bin Laden and Wolfowits, and others). I do not feel one bit of joy at more loss of innocent life. Because the same argument for such joy can back up joy for loss of Serbian life, loss of Iraqi life, loss of Bosnian life, loss of Armenian life, even loss of Turkish innocent children and women and men. The callousness I speak of is an emotional reaction to the intellectual facts that I just now stated. So while I completely agree that the hypocrisy of viewing one life as precious and another life as an expandable price of war is mind boggling, I will not stop valuing the life of those in London or New-York simply because the people in those places do not value the life of those in Iraq and Serbia or anywhere else. You're not tipping the scales of justice by taking your support of human life from one region and putting it another. You must value it and mourn its loss anywhere.

But, I must warn, I'm no softy. I would send money to ASALA if they limited they operations to surgically dispatching scum like Erdogan. I also have no problems with defending your religious and national freedom. This is why I don't view Iraqi resistance (not the crazy Islamists who bomb local populace and behead innocent folks) as an abomination. It is a very natural and even valiant reaction to foreign occupation, which is what this war is about. And as was correctly mentioned, Iraq is a cesspool of Islamist crazies thanks to this war. Have you ever thought that perhaps Saddam was such a sadistic bastard to make sure the crazies never took hold of an inch in Iraq. Also, you need to realize that there are a dozen of such dictatorships in world today, including Saudi Arabia, Vietnam, North Korea. If dictatorship was reason enough for war, today the entire globe should be enveloped in war.

Finally someone who sees a part of my point. The people on this forum are so caught up in their hatred for US foreign policy that they just sit there and bash left and right without actually making any useful suggestions. Always digging into US conspiracy and paranoia rather than just looking at the situation objectively. I for one would have supported the surgical removal of terrorist organizations without endangering innocent lives. The US should have done that in Afghanistan and Iraq instead of wasting billions of dollars and sacraficing thousands of lives.

BUT, I am still sticking to my point in saying that anyone who thinks that the people in London "deserved" to get bombed and die due to England's policy is just not right. And that goes towards the comments made earlier by the Turkish poster and Anush.

For example, I have no love for Turks due to the Genocide, but if Armenia had the nuclear capability to wipe out Turkey, I'd oppose it. Taking innocent lives, especially people who had nothing to do with it, in retaliation for lives lost is wrong.

My original point was that two wrongs do not make a right. Much like these other posters, I am against war and the loss of human life. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a huge mistake, the invasion of Iraq was a huge mistake. I for one do not believe that the US should police the world. I am also fully aware that alot of the problems we face in the middle east is due to Israel but I am still not going to sit here and say that well US fckd up, its time they get bombed and thousands of innocent people die so that the score could be even.

Right now my #1 priority is in making sure I do not have to attend any funerals for friends who lose their lives in Iraq. If that means fighting a little longer to wipe out those crazy Islamist miltants and setting up some sort of government that can control the nation and then withdrawing, then so be it. If US withdrew right now, the crazies would seize power, strengthen their influence and networks and set about causing more death and destruction to innocent people like those in the world trade center, the several embassies, the london subways. Their truly hate our guts right now. Bush got us into this mess, now he has to finish up the job completely and get us out.

One more thing, people like anush, a5092, anonymouse always like to point out the negatives in an effort to stick it to the government. It's as if they have an agenda. I do not see anyone commenting about the countless acts of assistance our nation provides to people all over the world.

[Anonymouse]

Everyone has an agenda. What is your point?

[Pamooshjian]

You show no sympathy for the countless lives of young children that were lost in the FBI building daycare because of what happened in Waco?

That is correct. Although it's going against my nature, it needs to be said and let it be known that I will not overlook their killing of innocent people INCLUDING CHILDREN and then shed tears for them and their children when they get payback.

The FBI building bombing was a planned murder.

So was WACO. Maybe not at first, but during the standoff they made the decision to make an unnecessary move which would potentially kill all the people inside. They got snagged big time with this one during the investigation into WACO. There was footage taken from a helicopter which showed that armored vehicle which pumped a certain gas into the compound. Then the footage showed a bright flash in front of the armored vehicle and it was said that it was the flash of the incindiary device that ignited the gas and set the compound on fire. The defense argued that the flash was the reflection of the sun off of a shiny object. It was then pointed out to them that the footage taken was taken by a thermal imaging camera and it only picked up heat signiatures as bright flashes and not light or reflections of light.

That is all there is to it. As for Waco, that could have been avoided by both sides. Take your own house. You have the right to possess arms but if a full division of FBI arrive at your doorstep for one reason or another, do you not try to come outside and talk and negotiate? Or do you barricade yourself with your guns and go into a stand-off and escalate the situation.

It was the ITF that escalated the situation. They're the ones who decided to storm the place when they could have waited it out as those people inside weren't going anywhere. I must admit that I thoroughly enjoyed watching that ITF guy get plugged through the wall as he was trying to sneak up on them. Come outside to talk and negotiate? Randy Weaver's wife might have come outside, if they wouldn't have blown her head off through the kitchen door.

If a simple police officer arrives and knocks on your door, and you have nothing to hide, do you confront him, or tell him to f-ck off and respect your privacy and civil rights?

That would depend on the situation. I have told more than one cop to f-uck off and on more than one occasion. One time it was because a cop was ordering me to get back in my car while I was on private property. Another time it was because the police stopped me as I was about to get into my car and asked to see my ID. I didn't comply as a good robot should. I asked them why they wanted to see my ID. They said they had got a call from a woman that was being harrased by some guy in a car that was similar to mine. So I asked them when this harrassment took place and they said only minutes ago. So I told the cop to go and put his hand on the hood of my car and if it's warm, I'll give him my ID. He goes and checks, then comes back and still asks for my ID. I then asked, didn't you just go and check to see if my car is warm? He said yes. Was it warm I asked. He said no. So I refused to give them my ID and they said that they would arrest me if I didn't give my ID and I said that they would have to arrest me because I'm not giving them no ID. The cops didn't know what to do and I could see it on their faces. They realized that arresting me wasn't going to be that easy and if there was violence involved, they would have some explaining to do while I was telling them to go and do their job instead of pretending to. They were relieved when someone who was present saw a similar car drive by and laughingly said to the cops, look there goes your guy now. They got back in their car and f-cked off like I told them to in the first place. To someone like you, my actions probably seem unreasonable and you probably think that by simply cooperating, unpleasantness could have been easily avoided. But to someone like me who has a strong belief in principals and much forsight, I quickly assessed the situation and here's the scenario. I haven't done anything so I have nothing to worry about or after the cop checked my hood and still wanted my ID, I give it as I have nothing to hide and haven't done anything wrong. The next day I get a phone call from the sargeant detective asking me to go to the station for a police line up. I'm more than happy to cooperate with the local police so I prance on down to the station and do the line-up thing which I'm happy to do as it's a new and exiting experience and I almost feel like I'm part of the team. Next thing you know, the sargeant detective comes back in and tells me that the woman picked me out because I have short dark hair like the guy or whatever. So I tell the sargeat detective about how the cop checked my hood and it was cold bla bla bla and the cop now doesn't remember and I get put under arrest and I will have to get a lawyer to represent me in court and try to prove that the cop checked my hood while he doesn't remember doing that and convinve the judge that the hood thing happened while neither cop remember such a thing etc etc. I know it can happen, I know it has happened and I will avoid puting myself in that kind of unnecessarry if I can and that's what I did.

Getting back to the ranch. Do you remember Randy Weaver? Yea, the guy who's home and family was under siege by the ATF at Ruby Ridge in Idaho. Sound familliar? The ATf had entrapped Weaver by getting one of the agents to hire Weaver to cut off the barrels of two shotguns illegally. Once Weaver was arrested, BATF tried to force him to inform on the Aryan Nation group, with which he was affiliated, but he refused. Weaver also refused to appear in court for the minor firearms charge. For the next 18 months, the U.S. Marshals Service spied on the Weavers’ isolated mountain cabin, where Randy lived with his wife Vicki, son Sammy (14), daughters Sara (16), Rachel (10), and Elisheba (10 months), and a young friend named Kevin Harris.

Then came August 21, 1992. On that morning, six trained government marksmen wearing ski masks and camouflage and armed with automatic weapons equipped with silencers, crept up on the Weaver cabin without warning or warrant and without identifying themselves. First they shot and killed the family’s yellow Labrador, Striker, who had been barking at the intruders. When young Sammy witnessed this, he fired a .223 mini-14 in the direction from which the shots had come, then ran back toward the cabin. Agents shot Sammy in the arm, knocking him down. The youngster got back to his feet and began running again. Moments later, a second gunshot caught Sammy in the back, killing him.

Within 24 hours, one Deputy U.S. Marshal was dead and some 400 federal agents were arriving at the scene, along with a helicopter, "humvees," and armored transport vehicles and personnel carriers. The Weavers’ dead dog was left in the road and repeatedly run over by government vehicles. On the afternoon of August 22, Vicki Weaver, standing at the cabin’s kitchen door and armed with nothing more lethal than baby Elisheba, was shot in the head by a government sniper. The round hit Vicki in the temple, traveled through her mouth, tongue, and jawbone, then severed her carotid artery. Kneeling on the floor and still clutching her baby, Vicki bled to death.

Nine days later, Weaver, a badly wounded Harris, and the surviving kids surrendered to federal agents. Eleven months after that, a jury in Boise, Idaho, acquitted Weaver and Harris of murder and conspiracy charges stemming from the government assault.

In 1995, Congressional hearings into the Weaver tragedy revealed a cover-up, but the feds refused to prosecute the killers of Sammy and Vicki Weaver. Case closed.

And that my friend, is the tip of the iceberg and what your government does to its own citizens so it's really no surprise what they will do to other people in other countries.

Since you are so up to date on current events and foriegn policies, maybe you'd like to share with us the reasons for our bombing of Kosovo.

No, you're the one trying to justify the attack on Kosovo and the killing of 2,500 civillians. So you should be the one giving us one hell of a good reason why those civillians were killed and while you're at it, please explain the difference between killing civillians by bombing them with planes and putting bombs in subways and buses.

Do you know that the azerbaboons tried to get NATO to bomb Armenia like they bombed the Serbs in Kosovo? I think they would have done it too if we weren't in close proximity to Russia and their allies. Here's a question for you, oh patriotic flag waver. If you were in the US military and you were told that you're to attack and bomb Armenia into the stone age. Would you do it? Would you go there and kill Armenians in order to serve your country? If the Armenians didn't want their country occupied and started killing the occupiers, would you then start calling them terrorists for resisting the occupation?

What did we gain? or even Iraq, people said we went in for the oil. Where is that oil? Have you seen our gas prices. We have poured billions of dollars into that country to help build a new government and an infrastructure to help the people get back on their feet and what do they do on a daily basis? Bomb our troops and their own fellow Iraqi citizens. Do you forget all of the beheadings? The word "barbaric" should be reserved for that....

You personally gained nothing other than more enemies around the world and their hatred. The oil was not for you either, it was to make the rich get richer and for israel. You poured billions of dollars into that country to help? Wow, what a bunch of nice guys you Americans are and so benevolent and charitable to give the shirts off your backs to help some Iraqis get back on their feet. Did you ever stop and think for one minute that if you didn't knock them off their feet in the first place and bomb their country into a pile of rubble, that maybe they wouldn't need to be helped get back on their feet. Regarding the bombings of your troops, doesn't that tell you something? Doesn't that tell you that maybe, just maybe they don't want you or your help? As far as I'm concerned, your troops are occupying a country by force and by international law, those people have the right to resist occupation by every means at their disposal and every one of your troops is a legitimate target. As for bombing their own fellow Iraqi citizens, I'm not really convinced that it's Iraqis doing it and I feel exactly the same way about all those bombs that go off "prematurely" in the cars of alleged Palestinian terrorists.

Your troops in Iraq are not dying for or in order to serve or protect the USA, they're dying for israel. No I didn't forget the beheadings and I find nothing wrong with it. As a matter of fact, I think they were too kind. The word "barbaric" should be reserved for you and your kind who indiscriminantly bomb civillians of a country who did nothing to deserve it. The word "barbaric" is reserved for your fellow Americans who scalped the native Americans and then falsely portrayed it as an act that the natives started. The word "barbaric" is reserved for your fellow American who cut off native women's breasts and made tobbacco pouches out of them.