EU-Turkey: A Full Membership Or A "Privileged Partnership?"

[Siamanto]

German opposition leader Merkel to continue objecting to Turkish EU membership

AFX Europe (Focus); Jun 16, 2005

BERLIN (AFX) - Angel Merkel, the head of the opposition CDU, said she
will stick to her objection to Turkey joining the European Union if
she wins the general election in September.

Merkel told parliament that she will stand by her position that the
EU would be better served by a "privileged partnership" with the
Turkish government as opposed to full membership.

"We will not renounce our position and will continue to repeat that
negotiations for a privileged partnership are the best option for
integrating Turkey in Europe," she said.

Merkel said that the fact that Turkey had still not established
diplomatic relations with Armenia or Cyprus, the latter of which
joined the EU one year ago, is a "quite catastrophic situation".

Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder has strongly backed full EU membership
for Turkey, which is due to begin EU accession talks on Oct 3.

Merkel's Christian Union bloc is leading Schroeder's Social Democrats
in opinion polls by a double-digit margin.

http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg115904.html

[Siamanto]

I agree, continue to live in your diasporan dreamworld and make us and all the world ridicule with your fantasies.

And the little boy ways good bye from within the cabriolet as the caravan continues its journey!
*He's thinking: hopefully we'll never see his annoyingly nasal voice again. Hopefully we'll never see his ugly face again.*

[karakitap]

[QUOTE=Red Brigade.You are the real pathological clown here with inferiority complexes.You accuse Armenia which has a recorded history of thousands of years as not a real nation,yet you forget that you are an artifician fake nation with a history off less than 1000 years old,without your Alphabet , but a stolen latin one.And because you don't have the balls to accept the truth, you and the rest of you countrymen claim nations as Sumerians ,Huns,''Sea people'',Mongols,Hittites,Trojans and other ancient Civilizations as Turks, because you desperately seek a noble past to run away from the truth and the reality.The reality, which is that you have been barbarians without any contribution to mankind ,in arts ,philosophy physics and science.
[/QUOTE]


Be honest Red Brigade, you are the one that entertain me, anyway. Just for your information about this "without alphabet" thing:

ORKHON INSCRIPTIONS, ancient Turkish inscriptions of the 8th century A.D., discovered near the river Orkhon to the south of Lake Baikal in 1889.

The earliest known alphabet is the Kokturk (Kok Turki, Gokturk) alphabet developed by Kokturks, a Turkic tribespeople that had established a broad Central Asian empire and reached its zenith between the 6th and the 8th century AD. The first samples of this alphabet can be found on stone inscriptions (the best known are the Orkhon inscriptions) and dated to the early 8th century AD. Kokturk alphabet had 38 letters and only 4 of them were vowels. Although the shapes of the letters were somewhat similar to those of the Nordic Runic alphabet, the sounds were entirely different.

When Turks were erecting these monuments at AD 732 and 735 Russians which you obsessively admire don't even know how to write. Russians, Bulgarians, Serbians, Scandinavians,etc. first written scripts are datindg to a very late time, 10th-11th centuries. So I am fully proud of my history especially when I see you, a nation who is still living at its childhood period mentally. How bad that your childish diaspora is representing the ancient and regarded nation of Armenians.
Anyway, bye...

[Siamanto]

Pan Armenian News

"OLD EUROPE" IS AGAINST NEGOTIATIONS WITH ANKARA

The potential leaders of France and Germany suppose that the dialogue on
Turkey's EU membership is senseless.

`Negotiations on Turkey's EU membership are senseless', announced the leader
of France's ruling `Union for a popular movement' party, Interior Minister
Nicolas Sarcozy in his speech in Paris. According to Sarcozy, the European
Union has `more urgent and important issues than that of negotiations with
Turkey. Thus, the second person in the French government has confirmed his
position and spoke out categorically against Turkey's membership in the
family of European nations.

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Of course, it does not follow from Sarcozy's statement
that official Paris insists on the refusal to start negotiations with Ankara
on the conditions of Turkey's EU membership. Sarcozy only states that he
considers negotiations with Ankara unreasonable and having no prospects. But
if the start of negotiations for Turkey is an end in itself, then no
problem. Negotiations may start but never finish. EU
Commission representative to Ankara, Hans Kretschmer has already stated that
if negotiations start they will hardly finish by the end of 2014. Before
that, Europe may change beyond recognition. It is quite possible that by
that time, the issue of Armenia's EU membership will be already put on the
agenda.

Nicolas Sarcozy has always been against Turkey's EU membership, but it is
the first time that he speaks out so definitely. Sarcozy's current status
allows to suppose that his position is the official position of the
government. Even if it is not so, let us not forget in any case that he is
the most probable successor of Jacques Chirak. In case of success in the
2008 presidential elections his personal point of view will become official.
Sarcozy's statement contains an important accent. He underlined that he
considered Turkey's EU membership unacceptable, since Turkey "is the largest
country of Central Asia and not of Europe". So, he is against Turkey's
membership in the family of European nations not because Turkey has not yet
fulfilled all the set requirements, but because of the geographical factor.
It follows that Sarcozy supposes that Turkey cannot even aspire to gain a
place in Europe even if all the requirements are fulfilled. This
circumstance cannot but worry us, because the French minister's point of
view which becomes more and more popular contradicts to our interests. The
problem is not in the fact that Armenia is also geographically located in
Asia and that with the same logic Armenia can also be deprived of the right
for a place in Europe. The thing is that there is a serious danger that
Turkey may become absolutely unpredictable and unmanageably aggressive in
case there is no stimulus to follow European values.

Hopes that Ankara will agree to be satisfied with the status of a
"privileged partner" are not so big. Rejeb Erdogan has recently stated that
he is not going to agree to that. Nevertheless European leaders, including
Nicolas Sarcozy continue to state that "privileged partnership" is the
maximum of what can be offered to Turkey. In the same spirit was also the
statement of the head of Christian Democratic Union - Christian Social Union
of German Bundestag. The leader of the parliamentary majority has clearly
called to refuse to start negotiations with Ankara that were planned for
October. It should be noted that the head of CDU-CSU is not just the leader
of one of the political parties, but is a person that represents a political
force which according to forecasts will win in the upcoming elections. This
means that like in the case with Nicolas Sarcozy, we deal with "favorites"
that may soon be at the controls. The future leaders of the two most
influential countries of "Old Europe" are categorically against Turkey's EU
membership. In case of victory, those people will rule until 2010-2015.
During that period of time, Turks will have no chances at all. Maybe this
was what the EU Ankara representative meant saying that the negotiations on
Turkey's EU membership would last at the least until 2014.

It is likely that the negotiations with Ankara will start in October as it
was planned during the last year's EU summit. This was confirmed by the
president of EU Commission Jose Manuel Barroso. But in the situation formed,
the negotiations will hardly achieve any success.

15.06.2005, "PanARMENIAN Network" analytical department

http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg116369.html

[winoman]

The earliest known alphabet is the Kokturk (Kok Turki, Gokturk) alphabet developed by Kokturks, a Turkic tribespeople that had established a broad Central Asian empire and reached its zenith between the 6th and the 8th century AD.

This is entirely laughably incorect - though a typical Turkish claim.

[bezjian]

I agree, continue to live in your diasporan dreamworld and make us and all the world ridicule with your fantasies.

some turkish fantasies to ridicule. i belong to a "trapezunta" yahoogroup (discussion about trabzon, its history, etc.). sun-theorists are still alive and kicking - did you know that turks are part of the ancient near east and travelled around with alexander and the greeks?! (talk about insecurity and inferiority complex as a nation)

since "sushi" and "karaoke" are part of the english language now, perhaps we should examine whether english is in fact a long lost relative of japanese!

__________________________________________________ ______________________

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:59:01 +0300
From: Kaya Akyüz <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Romeika

Thank you Dimitri for the information. I don't know if what I'm going
to say will cast another question or answer yours. For a project I was
researching on the Sumerian language and noticed that tens of words are the same in Turkish. When I read more about this, I thought that at some time in
history Turks were living with Sumerians in todays Anatolia and Middle East;
then for some reason they moved into Asia and lived there until the famine,
etc. Here's a comparison of some basic words:

English...Sumerian......Turkish
father.....abba/adda .....baba/ata
mother......ama...........ana
house.........e ............. ev
heat..........izi .............. isi
coast.........kiya ......... kiyi
princess....egi ........... ece
to blow(wind).es ............ es-mek*
to put........ku ............. koy-mak*
fat..........gisku.............sisko
upright......dim............dik or dimdik
to say........de ..............de-mek*
to stop.....duru ..............dur-mak*
to run......kusu ............. kos-mak*
smiling.....güles............. güles, gülenç
axe..........bal .............. balta
mind........us ................ us
rope.........ib .................. ip
dawn.......tam........... ....tan
great.......ulu ................ ulu
what?......A-na? ............Ne?
neck.....Buy/bun .......... Boyun
who?....Gim?/Kim?....... Kim?
God......Dingir ...........Tengri (ancient Turkish), Tanri (modern)
*(-mek and -mak are the suffixes for verbs like -ing)

So my point is that the Turks, if they were in Anatolia and went to
Asia, they could have also had some Greek/Ionian tribes with them. It is a
high possibility and I will look into that.

Thanks.
Kaya

On 6/18/05, Dimitri Iakovidis <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Dear Safak and others,
> A few clarifications as a start:
> I was attracted to the content of the discussion and became a member
so I
> am
> new.
> I am of Greek origin, first generation Greek and I live in Melbourne.
My
> parents and their progenitors originate from Ardahan, Cars and left
for
> Greece in 1922.
> It appears that Safak has knowledge of history regarding the late
third of
>
> the first millenium bce and I admire this in any person.
> Regarding linguistics or etymology however it is a different story.
> I will not try to tire you.
> Anadolu [Anatole], hence Anatolia and Anatolian languages.
> Origin: the Greek verb anatello [ano+tello = come up = rise]
describes the
>
> appearance of the sun. Therefore Anatole means East [where the sun
rises]
> and this is where Anadolu comes from.
>
> The oldest Anatolian language known is Sanskrit. Other languages as
> Sumerian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian were all written in cuneyform
> which
> derived from hieroglyphs. And Hittite was a hieroglyphic language
that was
>
> decoded through dual tablets with Assyrian. The meanings of the names
of
> all
> these Anatolian languages need much space to explain.
>
> The word Trabzon, Trapezounta or Trapezous as its older name was, is
> derived
> from the word Tetrapezous. According to an old myth Zeus punched with
> anger
> a table [tetrapezon=tetrapodon=a four legged table] and that's how it
got
> its name. From the same root come the words trapezi=table in Greek
and
> trapeza=table (agia trapeza0 and bank as well since the original
banking
> was
> performed on tables. No relation therefore to three and three is
> absolutely
> not a Hittite word.
>
> The word pontos describes the wide sea and along with the words
thalassa
> and
> pelagus refer to volumes of water smaller than the ocean (There is
also
> archipelago), They are all Greek words.
> Pontos is derived from the verb pneo=blow and the evolution of the
word is
>
> pneo--pnotos--pontos.
> Pontos was the name of the sea [Black sea=Mavri thalassa or Efxeinos
> pontos=hospitable to the strangers sea. Originally it was called
Axeinos
> pontos, the opposite of Efxeinos]. (Source: Magnum Etymologicum).
> Pontos was a name given to the north coast of Asia Minor long before
> Herodotus and its mountains were called Pontic mountains.
> Thalassa in ancient Greek is als. From als alas =salt is derived and
salt
> etymologically is derived from alas. Thalassa it is said that derives
from
>
> thalo=keep alive, preserve life and als [thal+als=thalassa].
>
> Looking through history-mythology one should look at the Argonautic
> expedition(s). One of them had as destination Colchis (today's
Batum). If
> one wants to place it chronologically it goes either around 3,000bce
or
> around 6,500bce [according to astronomical data-phenomena mentioned
by
> Orheas]. Batum is in today's Georgia. This means that the Greeks of
that
> era
> had knowledge not only of Efxeinos pontos but of the Don and Bolga
rivers
> and so on. One can find the Argonauts either in the Orphics or in the
> history by Apollonius the Rhodian.
>
> The whole of Asia Minor and Middle East and beyond was
inhabited-colonised
>
> by Greeks thousands of years ago.
> Ionians settled in the south-west of Asia Minor along with Carians,
> Dorians,
> Aeolians, Leleges, Cretans and Phrygians [originally Brygians from
> Macedonia]. Because Ionians were the predominant group it was called
Ionia
>
> and later by the Turks Yunanistan, describing a Greek land and the
Greeks
> Yunani.
> A big question I am dealing with, at present, is whether the Turks (a
> Turanic race originating from the area of the Altaian mountains in
> Mongolia)
> had during their course to the West any contact with the word Ionians
> (Yunani) because a huge multi-ethnic province of China (in its
south-west)
>
> is called Younan even today. The people in that province have races
with
> fair or red hair, blue or green eyes and names that sound familiarly
> Greek.
> The name Ion (he was the grand-son of Deucalion) places him after the
> biggest Greek cataclysm=flood (around 11,00 years bce). He is not
related
> with Io, an early goddess Zeus coupled with neither with god Io
reported
> in
> Gilgamesh=Hercules, the Sumerian epic.
> Regards
> Dimitri
>
> ------------------------------
> *Yahoo! Groups Links*
>
> - To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/trapezounta/
> - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> <[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
> - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>

[karakitap]

This is entirely laughably incorect - though a typical Turkish claim.

How can you be so sure about an issue which you are totally ignorant? Search "Orkhun inscriptions" from google Mr. self confident ignorant.

[karakitap]

some turkish fantasies to ridicule. i belong to a "trapezunta" yahoogroup (discussion about trabzon, its history, etc.). sun-theorists are still alive and kicking - did you know that turks are part of the ancient near east and travelled around with alexander and the greeks?! (talk about insecurity and inferiority complex as a nation)

since "sushi" and "karaoke" are part of the english language now, perhaps we should examine whether english is in fact a long lost relative of japanese!

__________________________________________________ ______________________

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 11:59:01 +0300
From: Kaya Akyüz <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Romeika

Thank you Dimitri for the information. I don't know if what I'm going
to say will cast another question or answer yours. For a project I was
researching on the Sumerian language and noticed that tens of words are the same in Turkish. When I read more about this, I thought that at some time in
history Turks were living with Sumerians in todays Anatolia and Middle East;
then for some reason they moved into Asia and lived there until the famine,
etc. Here's a comparison of some basic words:

English...Sumerian......Turkish
father.....abba/adda .....baba/ata
mother......ama...........ana
house.........e ............. ev
heat..........izi .............. isi
coast.........kiya ......... kiyi
princess....egi ........... ece
to blow(wind).es ............ es-mek*
to put........ku ............. koy-mak*
fat..........gisku.............sisko
upright......dim............dik or dimdik
to say........de ..............de-mek*
to stop.....duru ..............dur-mak*
to run......kusu ............. kos-mak*
smiling.....güles............. güles, gülenç
axe..........bal .............. balta
mind........us ................ us
rope.........ib .................. ip
dawn.......tam........... ....tan
great.......ulu ................ ulu
what?......A-na? ............Ne?
neck.....Buy/bun .......... Boyun
who?....Gim?/Kim?....... Kim?
God......Dingir ...........Tengri (ancient Turkish), Tanri (modern)
*(-mek and -mak are the suffixes for verbs like -ing)

So my point is that the Turks, if they were in Anatolia and went to
Asia, they could have also had some Greek/Ionian tribes with them. It is a
high possibility and I will look into that.

Thanks.
Kaya

On 6/18/05, Dimitri Iakovidis <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Dear Safak and others,
> A few clarifications as a start:
> I was attracted to the content of the discussion and became a member
so I
> am
> new.
> I am of Greek origin, first generation Greek and I live in Melbourne.
My
> parents and their progenitors originate from Ardahan, Cars and left
for
> Greece in 1922.
> It appears that Safak has knowledge of history regarding the late
third of
>
> the first millenium bce and I admire this in any person.
> Regarding linguistics or etymology however it is a different story.
> I will not try to tire you.
> Anadolu [Anatole], hence Anatolia and Anatolian languages.
> Origin: the Greek verb anatello [ano+tello = come up = rise]
describes the
>
> appearance of the sun. Therefore Anatole means East [where the sun
rises]
> and this is where Anadolu comes from.
>
> The oldest Anatolian language known is Sanskrit. Other languages as
> Sumerian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian were all written in cuneyform
> which
> derived from hieroglyphs. And Hittite was a hieroglyphic language
that was
>
> decoded through dual tablets with Assyrian. The meanings of the names
of
> all
> these Anatolian languages need much space to explain.
>
> The word Trabzon, Trapezounta or Trapezous as its older name was, is
> derived
> from the word Tetrapezous. According to an old myth Zeus punched with
> anger
> a table [tetrapezon=tetrapodon=a four legged table] and that's how it
got
> its name. From the same root come the words trapezi=table in Greek
and
> trapeza=table (agia trapeza0 and bank as well since the original
banking
> was
> performed on tables. No relation therefore to three and three is
> absolutely
> not a Hittite word.
>
> The word pontos describes the wide sea and along with the words
thalassa
> and
> pelagus refer to volumes of water smaller than the ocean (There is
also
> archipelago), They are all Greek words.
> Pontos is derived from the verb pneo=blow and the evolution of the
word is
>
> pneo--pnotos--pontos.
> Pontos was the name of the sea [Black sea=Mavri thalassa or Efxeinos
> pontos=hospitable to the strangers sea. Originally it was called
Axeinos
> pontos, the opposite of Efxeinos]. (Source: Magnum Etymologicum).
> Pontos was a name given to the north coast of Asia Minor long before
> Herodotus and its mountains were called Pontic mountains.
> Thalassa in ancient Greek is als. From als alas =salt is derived and
salt
> etymologically is derived from alas. Thalassa it is said that derives
from
>
> thalo=keep alive, preserve life and als [thal+als=thalassa].
>
> Looking through history-mythology one should look at the Argonautic
> expedition(s). One of them had as destination Colchis (today's
Batum). If
> one wants to place it chronologically it goes either around 3,000bce
or
> around 6,500bce [according to astronomical data-phenomena mentioned
by
> Orheas]. Batum is in today's Georgia. This means that the Greeks of
that
> era
> had knowledge not only of Efxeinos pontos but of the Don and Bolga
rivers
> and so on. One can find the Argonauts either in the Orphics or in the
> history by Apollonius the Rhodian.
>
> The whole of Asia Minor and Middle East and beyond was
inhabited-colonised
>
> by Greeks thousands of years ago.
> Ionians settled in the south-west of Asia Minor along with Carians,
> Dorians,
> Aeolians, Leleges, Cretans and Phrygians [originally Brygians from
> Macedonia]. Because Ionians were the predominant group it was called
Ionia
>
> and later by the Turks Yunanistan, describing a Greek land and the
Greeks
> Yunani.
> A big question I am dealing with, at present, is whether the Turks (a
> Turanic race originating from the area of the Altaian mountains in
> Mongolia)
> had during their course to the West any contact with the word Ionians
> (Yunani) because a huge multi-ethnic province of China (in its
south-west)
>
> is called Younan even today. The people in that province have races
with
> fair or red hair, blue or green eyes and names that sound familiarly
> Greek.
> The name Ion (he was the grand-son of Deucalion) places him after the
> biggest Greek cataclysm=flood (around 11,00 years bce). He is not
related
> with Io, an early goddess Zeus coupled with neither with god Io
reported
> in
> Gilgamesh=Hercules, the Sumerian epic.
> Regards
> Dimitri
>
> ------------------------------
> *Yahoo! Groups Links*
>
> - To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/trapezounta/
> - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> <[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
> - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>

The problem is this "sun-theorists" are a very very extremist group (even they are an extreme minority at MHP, the Turkish ultra nationalist party). But this inferiority complex about "being white" is very common at diasporan Armenian. Ordianry Turks don't claim these kind of shi*s. But most people at your diaspora (especially the young generation) are insecure because of the abovementioned issues. And you know this, do you feel uncomfortable to agree with a Turk for once and try to proove to other Armenians in the forum that you are one of them? Why did you get offended?

[bezjian]

The problem is this "sun-theorists" are a very very extremist group (even they are an extreme minority at MHP, the Turkish ultra nationalist party). But this inferiority complex about "being white" is very common at diasporan Armenian. Ordianry Turks don't claim these kind of shi*s. But most people at your diaspora (especially the young generation) are insecure because of the abovementioned issues. And you know this, do you feel uncomfortable to agree with a Turk for once and try to proove to other Armenians in the forum that you are one of them? Why did you get offended?

i am not sure what response you are looking to get out of me. i stated clearly in my earlier post the reasons why i do not consider myself european, but allowed that other armenians are free to make that identification with themselves if they wish and only asked that others not make general statements about the rest of us. i attributed the phenomenon to the fact that diasporan and soviet armenians have been living in white/european countries in large numbers since the genocide. almost everyone here is from the u.s. or european country so we are not getting the perspective of other armenians living in other countries who perhaps can not speak english but only armenian and arabic or armenian and turkish or armenian and farsi.

but what is the lesson in all of this for you as a turk learning about armenians and their self-image by being here? are you asking yourself why there are millions of armenians spread throughout the u.s., canada, europe, etc., living in los angeles, fresno, detroit, boston, toronto, new york, paris, marseilles, but none (= zero) in van, erzerum, diyarbakir, bitlis, mus, sivas, trabzon, samsun, kayseri, adana, izmir, bursa and practically every corner of turkey except istanbul? there are dozens of armenian churches all over the u.s. and europe, lands which have nothing to do with our history, but none in the birthplace of the armenian nation. why the armenians in these places can't speak to eachother in their own language. why the young armenians of today are listening to system of a down thinking they are listening to armenian music when in fact it is white music, instead of the music that is based on the mughams/maqams that are thousands of years old. why the kids are learning electric guitar and bass, but not tar, kemancha, ud, kanun, dhol, darbuka. i hope you know the answer to this question by now.

there are legitimate reasons why armenians are dealing with these identity issues you are so hung up on. they all stem from one pivotal event: the genocide. your country's founders exterminated the armenian nation from its own ancestral lands and the people who made it out alive were barely able to hold on to the small piece of territory that exists today. what you are accusing armenians of is a biproduct of the condition of forced exile. armenians do a better job of preserving their culture in foreign countries than probably 99% of world nationalities. turks claiming they are related to the ancient sumerians however has no basis in fact whatsoever and is a complete joke to the scholarly establishment, borne of an insecurity and inferiority complex that comes from being surrounded by peoples with much longer histories and real claims to the origins of western civilization. so yes, armenians living in the west have a few problems with identity issues, but turks have a far greater problem because what historical and linguistic evidence tells us about the origins of turks is completely at odds with the reality of where they are today.

when the turks arrived on the scene a thousand years ago and surveyed the scene, what did they find in the middle east? the arabs were the dominant culture, religiously, economically, and scientifically. the previous several centuries had seen the zenith of arab civilization, with damascus and baghdad being the greatest centers of learning in world. arab science, literature, architecture, music, etc. dominated the near east, north africa, and spain, and towered over that of western europe, which was a total backwater of a place and remained that way for several more centuries. despite fighting many wars between them the byzantines and arabs in fact exchanged quite a bit of information between them (there is a scholar at berkeley, mavroudi, who just won a macarthur genius grant for her work on this), and shared certain aspects of their culture.

but back to the turks. how did the turks respond to this situation? eventually becoming dominant militarily, they were still inferior culturally. they adopted the religion of the arabs, and consequently their script, and ended up incorporating enormous amounts of the arabic language (in addition to persian) into their own. ditto for other aspects of culture, i.e. music, etc. i am not trying to say turks don't have their own culture - of course they do, and there are many unique aspects to it, but what is not acknowledged by turkish historiography is the debt owed to arabs, greeks, and armenians in the formation of ottoman turkish culture (conversely these groups owe a certain amount to turks as well). when an armenian living in the 14th century decided to become a muslim to reduce his tax burden or perhaps even save his life, did he all of a sudden forget everything about who he was and become a nomad from the steppes?

moving on, fastforward a thousdand years to today. the ottoman empire has come and gone, and the arabs lag behind europe in terms of standard of living and scientific activity (not cultural activity though). europe is the place to be now, so now turks tells us turks have nothing to do with arabs and are part of the european family, waiting to get into the e.u. - give me a break! i've seen this kind of comment before, when i was in college. i was living in a dormitory for international students and was sitting at a table with turks and non-turks. the turks wanted to know what the non-turks thought the turkish language sounded like. one of the non-turks said it sounded similar to arabic. this ruffled the feathers of one of the turks, who then proceeded to tell everyone that turks have nothing to do with arabs and turkish sounds nothing like arabic. i'm sorry but this person, and others who think the same way, is really deluding himself. even today, after all the language engineering that took place, turkish still has tons of arabic words in it.

i agree with you that to see a people of the near east become orientalists themselves i think is really sad, whether it be turks or armenians. we shouldn't lose sight of the many ways that middle eastern cultures are superior to those of the west, family life, food, music, history etc.. those are things that tie all of us from the middle east together, whether we are turkish, armenian, greek, arab, persian etc. europeans have been very successful in taking advantage of discord between us. we should agree on history, settle the historical injustices (meaning restitution for genocides), stop trying to curry favor with this or that european power, give the kurds their own country so they stop bothering the rest of us, and move on. so long as it is a just and fair society, i would much rather live among greeks, persians, arabs, and yes even turks.

[karakitap]

i am not sure what response you are looking to get out of me. i stated clearly in my earlier post the reasons why i do not consider myself european, but allowed that other armenians are free to make that identification with themselves if they wish and only asked that others not make general statements about the rest of us. i attributed the phenomenon to the fact that diasporan and soviet armenians have been living in white/european countries in large numbers since the genocide. almost everyone here is from the u.s. or european country so we are not getting the perspective of other armenians living in other countries who perhaps can not speak english but only armenian and arabic or armenian and turkish or armenian and farsi.

but what is the lesson in all of this for you as a turk learning about armenians and their self-image by being here? are you asking yourself why there are millions of armenians spread throughout the u.s., canada, europe, etc., living in los angeles, fresno, detroit, boston, toronto, new york, paris, marseilles, but none (= zero) in van, erzerum, diyarbakir, bitlis, mus, sivas, trabzon, samsun, kayseri, adana, izmir, bursa and practically every corner of turkey except istanbul? there are dozens of armenian churches all over the u.s. and europe, lands which have nothing to do with our history, but none in the birthplace of the armenian nation. why the armenians in these places can't speak to eachother in their own language. why the young armenians of today are listening to system of a down thinking they are listening to armenian music when in fact it is white music, instead of the music that is based on the mughams/maqams that are thousands of years old. why the kids are learning electric guitar and bass, but not tar, kemancha, ud, kanun, dhol, darbuka. i hope you know the answer to this question by now.

there are legitimate reasons why armenians are dealing with these identity issues you are so hung up on. they all stem from one pivotal event: the genocide. your country's founders exterminated the armenian nation from its own ancestral lands and the people who made it out alive were barely able to hold on to the small piece of territory that exists today. what you are accusing armenians of is a biproduct of the condition of forced exile.

Well, I had no offensive aim as a Turk to learn about Armenians and I still have not instead of replying aggresive posts of some here. And I understand that it is not a very rightful behaviour to joke with identity problems of modern Armenian diaspora since I belong to the nation who is the reason of this diaspora and its identity problems and how they are seperated from their homeland and spread all over the world. So my critizations about Armenian identity may not be politically correct. I just surprised so much when I see this forum and how almost all community is full of Turkish hatred. (At least the ones who post about Turkey) This made me offended and I decided to post some answers. And since I am not personally guilty about Armenians catastrophe faced at 1915 and since I did not post any insulting message about Armenians in spite of all those ugly posts and since I was right about my points about this identity issue, I thing that I may have a right to answer the issues about me. But OK, I admit that it doesn’t seem very nice behaviour to debate these issue as a Turkish.

armenians do a better job of preserving their culture in foreign countries than probably 99% of world nationalities. turks claiming they are related to the ancient sumerians however has no basis in fact whatsoever and is a complete joke to the scholarly establishment, borne of an insecurity and inferiority complex that comes from being surrounded by peoples with much longer histories and real claims to the origins of western civilization. so yes, armenians living in the west have a few problems with identity issues, but turks have a far greater problem because what historical and linguistic evidence tells us about the origins of turks is completely at odds with the reality of where they are today.

You have a misinformation about Turkish historical claims. The issue that you imply about “Turks origin come from Sumerians” was claimed at 1930-40, a very short time with a very understandable reasons of that time. Today, people don’t claim this in Turkey. Origins of Turks are from central asia and Iran later. Turks start to come to Anatolia with big populations after 1071 Mangikert war between Selcuk Turks and Byzantine Empire. And Turks of todays modern Turkey is the mixture of these ancient Turks, maybe some authentic people of anatolia including Greeks and Armenians who converted to Islam, Laz, Kurd, Arap, Assyrian people, Turks (and Albanians and Bosnians) who are forced to expulse from Balkan peninsula and the ones who could reach Turkey at 1877 Russian invasion and after 1912-13 Balkan wars and caucasian people (circassians, chechnians, kirim tatars, abhasians, etc. Who are esacped from Russians and migrate to Turkey at 19. century.
Turks do not have such an inferiority complex about being suurounded by peoples with longer histories since those people abovementioned are assimilated under Turkish culture and adopted Turkish language. And these are not happened because Turks are forced them but besides maybe some Greeks and Armenians, the rest of all people including Albanians, Bosnians, Circassians, Chechnians, Abhasians, etc. Adopted Turkish identity themselves by the time.

when the turks arrived on the scene a thousand years ago and surveyed the scene, what did they find in the middle east? the arabs were the dominant culture, religiously, economically, and scientifically. the previous several centuries had seen the zenith of arab civilization, with damascus and baghdad being the greatest centers of learning in world. arab science, literature, architecture, music, etc. dominated the near east, north africa, and spain, and towered over that of western europe, which was a total backwater of a place and remained that way for several more centuries. despite fighting many wars between them the byzantines and arabs in fact exchanged quite a bit of information between them (there is a scholar at berkeley, mavroudi, who just won a macarthur genius grant for her work on this), and shared certain aspects of their culture.

but back to the turks. how did the turks respond to this situation? eventually becoming dominant militarily, they were still inferior culturally. they adopted the religion of the arabs, and consequently their script, and ended up incorporating enormous amounts of the arabic language (in addition to persian) into their own. ditto for other aspects of culture, i.e. music, etc. i am not trying to say turks don't have their own culture - of course they do, and there are many unique aspects to it, but what is not acknowledged by turkish historiography is the debt owed to arabs, greeks, and armenians in the formation of ottoman turkish culture (conversely these groups owe a certain amount to turks as well). when an armenian living in the 14th century decided to become a muslim to reduce his tax burden or perhaps even save his life, did he all of a sudden forget everything about who he was and become a nomad from the steppes?

Well, yes Turks adopted Islam from Arabs. What is wrong with it? Slavs who migrate from east and invaded Balkans are adopted Christianity and their alphabet from Byzantines, Scandinavians adopted Christianity from Angles and Saxons, etc. We can count more. If you are trying to insult Turks by this, it doesn’t work. It is a historical event which is normal. And yes Turks adopted a lot of things from the authentic people of anatolia of Greeks, Armenians and also you adopted lots of things from Turks. To make a contest of “who adopted more” is meaningless.
You may be right that tax burden was a incentive to convert to Islam but since 1071 to 1923 Turks did not threatened Christians by death to convert to Islam. If it was so, then today all of you would be Muslim. So it is an unjust claim.
And another thing which is repeated by your people is the “Turks have no regarded culture, they are barbars” thing. This may be true for the Turks of a thousand years ago. Turks who came from central asia had no substantial settled city life but especially after 13th century Turks have established a highly regarded culture with Selcuk Turks of Anatolia. Have you ever been to Turkey? If you see the mosques, caravanserais, palaces built by Turks after that time you couldn’t claim that Turks are barbarians.
Just click the below link and please tell me that how can you accuse people who built this monument dated 1228 as barbarians without culture, nomad from steppes, etc.
http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/358

moving on, fastforward a thousdand years to today. the ottoman empire has come and gone, and the arabs lag behind europe in terms of standard of living and scientific activity (not cultural activity though). europe is the place to be now, so now turks tells us turks have nothing to do with arabs and are part of the european family, waiting to get into the e.u. - give me a break! i've seen this kind of comment before, when i was in college. i was living in a dormitory for international students and was sitting at a table with turks and non-turks. the turks wanted to know what the non-turks thought the turkish language sounded like. one of the non-turks said it sounded similar to arabic. this ruffled the feathers of one of the turks, who then proceeded to tell everyone that turks have nothing to do with arabs and turkish sounds nothing like arabic. i'm sorry but this person, and others who think the same way, is really deluding himself. even today, after all the language engineering that took place, turkish still has tons of arabic words in it.

Well, of course Turkish has adopted many many Arabic and Persian words and they make Turkish richer. What is the problem? English is the most adopted language from others.
But I agree with you that some Turks of new generation (especailly the ones who admire western culture have this kind of inferiority complex to create distance with Arabs and to say that Turks have nothing to do wih Arabs, etc. As you see it is an international problem because of the cultural emperialism of west and all other things that I counted about Armenians case.

i agree with you that to see a people of the near east become orientalists themselves i think is really sad, whether it be turks or armenians. we shouldn't lose sight of the many ways that middle eastern cultures are superior to those of the west, family life, food, music, history etc.. those are things that tie all of us from the middle east together, whether we are turkish, armenian, greek, arab, persian etc. europeans have been very successful in taking advantage of discord between us. we should agree on history, settle the historical injustices (meaning restitution for genocides), stop trying to curry favor with this or that european power, give the kurds their own country so they stop bothering the rest of us, and move on. so long as it is a just and fair society, i would much rather live among greeks, persians, arabs, and yes even turks.

I totally agree and one more thing, I am not here to claim the national habit of Turkish governments of “no they killed us.” I know that a lot of Armenians have killed during deportation. I can understand how you feel, your civilisation in Anatolia is destructed, your relatives are killed, your goods are dissapeared. Besides this “genocide or not” or “you killed more” disputes I am very sorry for all things happened to your people. Debating about the numbers are very ugly and even if 300.000 Armenians are died according to Ottoman sources this is a very big number and a bidg shame, ¼ of all population, since the number seems higher.
Well, about this “Give Kurds their own country” thing, I have a serious and meaningful objection to this and I can state them at another topic maybe.
PS: I prefer to live with Greeks, Persians, Arabs and yes even Armenians  since I don’t like the cold and boring life of western people.