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[tunot]

Re: ????? ?????????

If you think we can survive without some form of government, fine. Explain yourself though, because I don't get how this is going to work.

Protect? Protect our rights, protect us as a nation, protect us as individuals, protect us, period. It's not protecting us right now, because it is ensuring that we leave Armenia or the Armenian community, survive elsewhere, and thereby assimilate. That's not what a government should do.

[Anonymouse]

Re: ????? ?????????

If you think we can survive without some form of government, fine. Explain yourself though, because I don't get how this is going to work.

Protect? Protect our rights, protect us as a nation, protect us as individuals, protect us, period. It's not protecting us right now, because it is ensuring that we leave Armenia or the Armenian community, survive elsewhere, and thereby assimilate. That's not what a government should do.

And you believe rights are conferred to us through government? Do you not believe man is endowed with natural rights? Therein lies the difference in modernity. Most believe that only government guarantees and gives our rights. However, few ever consider or entertain the thought that rights are inherently part of man.

The fact that the government is ensuring that Armenians leave and creating the recipe for such a situation, is all the more reason why it should be curbed, and/or gotten rid of. Now I know it will never happen, although I would like it to, but having a smaller and lesser government is still better than having the bloated one that Armenia has now. And why are not every Armenians armed?

Too much of the same thing has been tried over and over. Ever since Bolshevism Armenia has had nothing but some form of government trying to do this or that. It has already been tried and to try the same thing over and over again, expecting different results is stupidity. It's time to try something different. When something goes wrong (like the national economy being in a rut) one often hears that phrase from the government that "we all have to pitch in". What they mean by saying that is that if you divide the consequences up and make everyone pay for them (even those that had no part in the problem), then somehow the consequences are (magically) lightened and things will be ok. And that's kind of the point, really. If government was weak enough that its subjects could restrain it in any way, it wouldn't be able to be the final authority that bureaucrats want it to be.

[tunot]

Re: ????? ?????????

Did I say GIVE us our rights? Because I quite clearly remember thinking PROTECT our rights.

[tunot]

Re: ????? ?????????

The fact that the government is ensuring that Armenians leave and creating the recipe for such a situation, is all the more reason why it should be curbed, and/or gotten rid of.

You're beginning to get what I'm saying.

[Anahita]

Who can call themselves Armenian?

Is someone with one Armenian parent still 'Armenian?' How about only one grandparent? Only four great-great grandparents? A distant relative? What about someone who marries an Armenian woman, but doesn’t have recent Armenian ancestry? What about someone who has full Armenian ancestry but no interest in the culture or language? What about someone who has spent their entire life in Armenia, but has ancestry from a different region? …and so on. Who defines what is 'an Armenian' and what is the definition?

Who do you think can legitimately call themselves ‘Armenian?'

[Anonymouse]

Re: ????? ?????????

You're beginning to get what I'm saying.

Oh please, I knew this before you 'said' anything.

Did I say GIVE us our rights? Because I quite clearly remember thinking PROTECT our rights.

It is implied in what you have said. That they are there to 'protect our rights' implies that it was they who gave it to us to protect it. Thus, since government has never been the one that has given us our rights, and our rights being naturla and inalienable, then it follows, government cannot protect it, but only tra]mple on it, only make things worse, and it is up to people and individuals to protect their own rights.

This is still the same government that sold out Armenians like my mom's family under Stalin's regime. When Uncle Joe was going around to all the different republics and asking them for their traitors, the Armenian government, as usual, was the first to jump the wagon and say "Hey, look here, we have a bunch of traitors here. Sure, they are mostly Armenian repatriates who came back from the diaspora after the war, but they will do." That is my point. Government always acts in its own institutional and bureaucratic interests, which is why when people seek the government as the 'protector' of our rights, I become weary.

[tunot]

Re: ????? ?????????

Can we or can we not survive without a government? You haven't answered this question.

If yes, then let's throw government out of our door right now. That means you lose your post as a moderator here, and so do Siggie and admin, not to mention Armenia's government.

If no, let's try to find a solution that will benefit us all. Let's try to think a bit more optimistically, rather than nihilistically, and at least TRY, as opposed to giving in to defeatism, to make our government the way we would like it to be. It has never been tried before in Armenia, since we have, since our conception, been at the mercy of dictators who could care less about the people. Hence our problematic situation today.

As for giving rights, our rights are ours. They are inherent to us. No one is denying that. The Armenian government deprives us of our rights. We need a government that protects us and our rights, so that no one can deprive us of them. I hope this makes it slightly more comprehensible for you. Feel free to ask if you still don't get it.

[Anonymouse]

Re: Who can call themselves Armenian?

I'll tell you who is not legitimately an Armenian: anyone who values trees and vegetarians more than Armenians.

[Anonymouse]

Re: ????? ?????????

Can we or can we not survive without a government? You haven't answered this question.

If yes, then let's throw government out of our door right now. That means you lose your post as a moderator here, and so do Siggie and admin, not to mention Armenia's government.

If no, let's try to find a solution that will benefit us all. Let's try to think a bit more optimistically, rather than nihilistically, and at least TRY, as opposed to giving in to defeatism, to make our government the way we would like it to be. It has never been tried before in Armenia, since we have, since our conception, been at the mercy of dictators who could care less about the people. Hence our problematic situation today.

As for giving rights, our rights are ours. They are inherent to us. No one is denying that. The Armenian government deprives us of our rights. We need a government that protects us and our rights, so that no one can deprive us of them. I hope this makes it slightly more comprehensible for you. Feel free to ask if you still don't get it.

First of all, let's not jump ahead of ourselves here. By government, we are referring to the State. There are many forms of government, some are voluntary some are not. Parents and a family are a form of government, but one that is not based on coercion. In addition, private entities and institutions like companies or private business (like our very own Armenian Club) have 'governments' in the form of the owners, the CEO, or the stock holders, etc. So you putting everything under one vague label doesn't cut it.

Second, as much as you claim you have not tried to make Armenian identity dependent on the government, it seems to me that's what is going on. You can state and you have stated that more than once now, but what sort of government is going to 'protect us', if by the very nature of that institution, the bureaucracy becomes a life of its own?

Almost a century of Bolshevist omnipotent government, has created in Armenia a culture of corruption and a mafia clique. People's mentality and wortk ethic have also been altered in the process. Clearly, the answer is not yet another government. The government can be reshuffled all it wants, but under democracy, nothing can happen because the 'caretaker governments', i.e. the administrations that change, come and go, and cannot make any lasting changes, as one party replaces another and rolls back and institutes new policies, measures, etc. Either you need a despot who will rule for all his life consistently, or you need little to no government, and Armenians armed to their teeth. That is the only way I see it, but a culture of liberty has to be first inculcated into people, not a culture of dependency as it is currently being done.

[Anahita]

Re: Who can call themselves Armenian?

I'll tell you who is not legitimately an Armenian: anyone who values trees and vegetarians more than Armenians.

Do you know someone like that?