To impress a woman, a man.

[dusken]

I have to disagree on the relativist conception of how "roles change". That is what my Historical Materialist professor argued and I most candidly don't but in to the idea that whether it is roles or morality, that they are somehow "constructed with age". And yes, I am repeating myself that my personal preference is right and everything else is wrong.

How can you say roles do not change? The fact that we are having this discussion proves that change in gender roles are effected by cultural evolution. The only stance that can be taken here is whether a certain manifestation of gender roles is more positive with regards to society as a whole. And since there really is no way of showing without doubt that one manifestation is better than another, we can only break it down to personal freedom and the extent of individual variation in the sense of seeking partnerships.

[sSsflamesSs]

I have a feeling that...........feminine women who is independent.

So what happens when the man fails to provide for the family? The woman would have already given up her power in your ideal relationship, so that would make her - what should I say - screwed. If she has no job, no nothing, just working at home raising the kids, and one day, the man, being drunk with power, decides that he is tired of providing - and DON'T TELL ME THAT THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN, BECAUSE IT DOES AND IT WILL. What happens then?

Or what if the man uses his power to his advantage, holding his wife as hostage? Saying, if you don't do this and that, I won't provide. Believe me, I know what I'm talking about, I've seen these things happen in REAL relationships, a little too often.

And what about respect? What about decision making? If the man doesn't ask for his wife's opinion and doesn't give it equal weight when it comes to important decision making...who the hell wants that? That is what I'm talking about (and Dusken) when I say that I want to be respected as a human being.

And what about if the man cheats? Yea, you're saying if he abuses her love, she'll stop loving him. So? She'll still be heartbroken, she'll still be devastated, and to top it off, due to the inevitable separation (unless she's retarded and believes he won't cheat again and stays with him), she'll be financially ruined because her man used to provide for her, and now that they separated and she hasn't had a job for a while, she is forced to suffer through financial instability. What I'm saying is that the possibility that he WILL cheat and lose her love is very likely in this day and age. What is she to do then? You see what I'm getting at?

[Anonymouse]

So what happens when the man fails to provide for the family? The woman would have already given up her power in your ideal relationship, so that would make her - what should I say - screwed. If she has no job, no nothing, just working at home raising the kids, and one day, the man, being drunk with power, decides that he is tired of providing - and DON'T TELL ME THAT THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN, BECAUSE IT DOES AND IT WILL. What happens then?

Or what if the man uses his power to his advantage, holding his wife as hostage? Saying, if you don't do this and that, I won't provide. Believe me, I know what I'm talking about, I've seen these things happen in REAL relationships, a little too often.

And what about respect? What about decision making? If the man doesn't ask for his wife's opinion and doesn't give it equal weight when it comes to important decision making...who the hell wants that? That is what I'm talking about (and Dusken) when I say that I want to be respected as a human being.

Obviously you are giving examples of relationships with problems, no one said there won't be any. I can cite the same in your type of relationships in which power is "divided equally", supposedly, between the man and the woman, and they have problems, where the woman is controlling, demanding, not passive or feminine enough, too "independent" causing friction with the husband, not having enough time for their kids. Do you actually think you can manage to raise a family while at the same time having a career? That is a fallacy dear, sorry to say. And if you understood my postion you would understand the man needs to consult with the female and respect her. You are simply going off on a tangent with extreme cases.

Women who are about being independent and distrust the power of men usually come from having not received adequate love or security from their fathers. Females base their male romantic ideal on their relationship with their father. And it is understandable why most women in this culture are about being assertive, dominant, independent, and not depending on a man. Sadly, that doesn't solve the problem, it only continues the cycle. I am not here to make anyone conform. You have your views, I have mine. I most certainly will never get along or have a successful relationship with a non traditional woman. That's my two cents. Sadly in the modern world the traditional roles are undermined by social trends.

[Anonymouse]

How can you say roles do not change? The fact that we are having this discussion proves that change in gender roles are effected by cultural evolution. The only stance that can be taken here is whether a certain manifestation of gender roles is more positive with regards to society as a whole. And since there really is no way of showing without doubt that one manifestation is better than another, we can only break it down to personal freedom and the extent of individual variation in the sense of seeking partnerships.

I never said roles don't change. I wa disagreeing on how they change, and whether for the good or the bad. Obviously the current change in my opinion is for the bad, and the soaring divorce rate is evidence of this for me. Sooner or later there must be more than "individual preferences" to account for the huge divorce rate and inability to have a traditional family. While individual preferences vary, there is obviously something acting in the form of a catalyst that is creating these statistics. It therefore must be many individuals acting similarly.

[dusken]

Assuming that is why the divorce rate has increased is unfounded and presumptuous as a conclusion. There can be so many factors; for example, it would not account for the number of divorces that should have occured in the period of time that had your preferred role orientation if it was culturally unexeptable or unusual. And one must consider the positive aspects of women in the work force.

[hyebruin]

wow! this is turning into a really cool thread...this has been my dilemma forever...how to merge career and family together...for me what truely empowers me is to educate myself and acquire the skills i need to have a good life and to be able to depend on myself, but at the same time having a husband who provides so that i would not have to work as much, perhaps only part time and spend the rest of the time with my children...i want to be there for their first words and their first attempt to walk and all that...and i do feel bad that men do not get to see all those beautiful little steps their children take as they grow up...but that's life...what can you do?

having a good background and the skills to be able to provide for yourself and your family and be self sufficient when life throws you uncertainties (such as perhaps the husband losing his job, or an illness or a death or anything!!) is the peace of mind that empowers women to stay home and keep the family together..all granted of course that the husband is as faithful as the wife is to the idea of marriage and home and keeping it all together....

aaaahhhh what a beautiful picture; at least it does exist with some couples

[xBaron Dants]

Wouldn't it be painfully boring to have a wife who doesn't have a career, and has nothing to talk about except how much dust she gathered under the sofa today?

Of course mothers should be nurturing...they're mothers. But the whole idea of mothers always being in the kitchen and the father only providing sounds painfully outdated, and boring. Why should I not spend any time with my kids?

This is definitely not to say that I would marry a woman who is not ready to make ANY sacrifices careerwise for the family. But why must the man not need to make any sacrifices also?

[dusken]

The stagnancy of "the housewife" role is a major turn-off for me. A woman who is driven to accomplish something and accomplish it well is much more attractive. Does that mean I would like all career-oriented women? Not at all. I would probably not marry a lawyer or a businesswomen or a politician, etc. but someone else would. Marrying a teacher or a scientist or a writer or something of that nature sounds nice. I also do not want her to by me gifts with my money if the situation should arise. That is just odd to me.

[xBaron Dants]

The stagnancy of "the housewife" role is a major turn-off for me. A woman who is driven to accomplish something and accomplish it well is much more attractive. Does that mean I would like all career-oriented women? Not at all. I would probably not marry a lawyer or a businesswomen or a politician, etc. but someone else would. Marrying a teacher or a scientist or a writer or something of that nature sounds nice. I also do not want her to by me gifts with my money if the situation should arise. That is just odd to me.

Agreed.
Except for the fact that I'd marry a politician, or somebody in that field (journalism, yevayln).

[Sip]

... Men and Women are two peas in a pod, without eachother they would be nothing.

Actually, they would each be one pea in a pod.