Banning Turks

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Freedom of speech is fine and dandy but what good is it when the unity of the forum and its inviting atmosphere are reduced with these same aruguments? Sure answer the turks with some pre written lines and see how it goes.

BTW: I find it somewhat ironic Mouse that you, who dislikes democracy, is all for freedom of speech. I know the two are not mutually inclusive, but I would have thought you would agree that some things shouldn't be allowed to be expressed in whatever form. I believe in a strong state, especially a nationalistic one, and for any moron to be able to express his "views" can be harmful to the state.

[Anonymouse]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Freedom of speech is fine and dandy but what good is it when the unity of the forum and its inviting atmosphere are reduced with these same aruguments? Sure answer the turks with some pre written lines and see how it goes.

What good is it to have a forum to begin with, when all the same issues, and topics and threads resurface time and time again? We may as well not have any discussions. If you folks are looking for 'finality' in the battle of ideas, there is none, for the mind which contains and harbors thought, is limitless, and as such, mans ability to constantly think, muse and discuss is also limitless. There is no point in which some idea or thought comes to a finite end whereby we are estopped from probing into it. It just doesn't exist. Creating arbitrary rules and government decrees barring free speech does not shield that thought or idea from criticism, questioning, or discussion. Evidence? People who get fined, jailed, or imprisoned in Europe, Turkey, for questioning the genocide, the holocaust, or claiming there was an Armenian genocide.

BTW: I find it somewhat ironic Mouse that you, who dislikes democracy, is all for freedom of speech. I know the two are not mutually inclusive, but I would have thought you would agree that some things shouldn't be allowed to be expressed in whatever form. I believe in a strong state, especially a nationalistic one, and for any moron to be able to express his "views" can be harmful to the state.

You said it yourself. They are mutually exclusive. You can have a strong state, but a strong state is not necessarily a good state, or a legitimate one at that. You can have a strong state which is repressive and curbs freedom of speech, thought and behavior, but this is always at the risk of its citizenry. Degrees are important and key. For every action, there is always an equal and opposite reaction. In the study of complexities, or chaos theory, our actions reverberate beyond us. So that the stronger the state, and the more centralized and more organized, the more it moves toward disorder. In other words the more organized anything is, the easier it becomes disorganized. An example would be viri: the more people there are the easier a virus may spread. This is negitive entropy for us, positive entropy for the virus. The virus kills off more and more suitable hosts until it's own survival becomes delicate and the pendulum swings back in the other direction.

[jgk3]

Re: Banning Turks

Might I add:

A pro-Freedom of speech environment (especially on a discussion board, if not in a state) is a measure of health for one's communicative ability in expressing their stance in a logical and convincing way to an audience broader than a small group of elitists. Use it to your advantage.

[yerazhishda]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I think you and crusader have a misunderstanding.

The rule refers to outward manifestations of insulting Armenians using vulgar and or insulting speech. That because we all subjectively may be insulted by this or that statement or phrase is not enough. By that logic, we should ban all sorts of stuff that we each subjectively deem 'offensive.' Much like in law, the standard is one of reasonableness, i.e., we try as much to look at this objectively.

This is probably a fundamental disagreement between you and I. I percieve Genocide denial as automatically falling into the category of "insulting to all Armenians". This is not a percieved insult to just one or two Armenians but is insulting to all Armenians regardless of their ideological stance.

Your argument of "slippery slope" (highlighted) is a fallacy. Here, we are only referring to that which insults every Armenian on this forum. Genocide denial is equal to a turd saying "all Armenians can go f*ck themselves". Is it not?

The fact that people come here questioning the genocide (regardless of their reasons - ignorance, arrogance, propaganda) is not enough to ban them.

There are two strands of questioning: [1] Those that legitimately come here to argue because they want to debate the actual substance regardless of why they believe what they do, and [2] those that are here to post rants and nonsense simply to elicit a reaction. Those in the latter category are without question banned when either we see them or you inform them to us.

There are those that come here with propaganda and eventually get bored after 2 or 3 posts. I don't care about them; we can post one of those "catch-all" messages for them. I'm referring to the ones that like to stick around or pop their head up every couple of months (turds such as oslonor, seruven, ARGENTINA, SoyElTurco - who by the way has an avatar of the Turkish flag!!! How is that allowed?!). This types of turds that keep on filling this forum with propaganda/content that has nothing to do with thinking should be banned.

However, I have to say, the emotional response you and crusader have shown is not becoming. You are anti-free speech and your intolerance toward disagreement is a sad testament to us as Armenians. I don't care what rationale you put forth. You even disagree with Armenians here who post dissenting views, resorting insults. There is no room for that.

I am not anti-free speech, quite the contrary. There are very few occasions where I insult others. Those I do insult bring it on themselves with their stupidity. But I do not call for these types to be banned, do I? Let them speak all they want they are no threat and do not insult Armenians directly. Genocide denial does. It does not enhance the goals of the Republic, our People, and specifically this forum. It is insulting to every member hear. Members are fed up with having to hear turds insulting Armenia and Armenians. Something must be done.

If a Turk comes in here breaking rules and does not hide their intention in terms of insulting us, they will be banned. However, most Turks who do come here, advocate their views because they either don't know better or because they generally and genuinely believe in their version. If their expression inadvertently insults us, that is not grounds to ban them. These are the people who are trying to have a dialogue with and reach out.

Most turds? Name five. I can only think of one (Kanki) that was open to new ideas and who was even remotely thoughtful, although her ideas were pretty terrible. From what I see, most turds try to convince us that the Genocide was our fault. Should we allow that type of hate speech on an Armenian forum? Doesn't that disgrace our ancestors?

How does that look and reflect on us Armenians when we engage in the same anti-intellectual rigidity with which we accuse Turks of behaving?

How does it look when we allow them to come on here and disrespect us in the name of "democracy"?

While we are on it: I am against all laws that prohibit free speech. In Europe, there are laws that penalize those who question the Armenian genocide as well as the holocaust. I do not support such laws, no more than I support the Turkish government making it a crime to do the same in their own country. What do we end up with these two things? We end up with the rule of force declaring truth, which is the lowest denominator of establishing truth.

Just because one has a right to free speech, it does not give them the right to a microphone. Let them spew their speech elsewhere; it is counterproductive to this forum and is insulting to Armenians everywhere. What do guests who come here think when they see that these turds are allowed on here?

This issue is settled as far I am concerned. Do not raise any more questions about banning Turks because you find their presence distasteful. If you don't like it, leave.

Do not raise any more questions? What is this Stalinist Russia?

EDIT: I also support jgk3's idea.

I think it's a start.

[Anonymouse]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

This is probably a fundamental disagreement between you and I. I percieve Genocide denial as automatically falling into the category of "insulting to all Armenians". This is not a percieved insult to just one or two Armenians but is insulting to all Armenians regardless of their ideological stance.

Your argument of "slippery slope" (highlighted) is a fallacy. Here, we are only referring to that which insults every Armenian on this forum. Genocide denial is equal to a turd saying "all Armenians can go f*ck themselves". Is it not?



There are those that come here with propaganda and eventually get bored after 2 or 3 posts. I don't care about them; we can post one of those "catch-all" messages for them. I'm referring to the ones that like to stick around or pop their head up every couple of months (turds such as oslonor, seruven, ARGENTINA, SoyElTurco - who by the way has an avatar of the Turkish flag!!! How is that allowed?!). This types of turds that keep on filling this forum with propaganda/content that has nothing to do with thinking should be banned.



I am not anti-free speech, quite the contrary. There are very few occasions where I insult others. Those I do insult bring it on themselves with their stupidity. But I do not call for these types to be banned, do I? Let them speak all they want they are no threat and do not insult Armenians directly. Genocide denial does. It does not enhance the goals of the Republic, our People, and specifically this forum. It is insulting to every member hear. Members are fed up with having to hear turds insulting Armenia and Armenians. Something must be done.



Most turds? Name five. I can only think of one (Kanki) that was open to new ideas and who was even remotely thoughtful, although her ideas were pretty terrible. From what I see, most turds try to convince us that the Genocide was our fault. Should we allow that type of hate speech on an Armenian forum? Doesn't that disgrace our ancestors?



How does it look when we allow them to come on here and disrespect us in the name of "democracy"?



Just because one has a right to free speech, it does not give them the right to a microphone. Let them spew their speech elsewhere; it is counterproductive to this forum and is insulting to Armenians everywhere. What do guests who come here think when they see that these turds are allowed on here?



Do not raise any more questions? What is this Stalinist Russia?



I think it's a start.

This is pointless. We can go about this in circles over and over. If you don't like it sir, you are free to go to another forum. I'm tired of this.

[yerazhishda]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

This is pointless. We can go about this in circles over and over. If you don't like it sir, you are free to go to another forum. I'm tired of this.

You are free not to respond as well, sir.

[Anonymouse]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

You are free not to respond as well, sir.

I will respond, when I have time, but what is your point? We aren't going to change our policy based subjective whims. Move on.

[Siggie]

Re: Banning Turks

It is what it is guys. The reasons have been explained to you. Whether you agree or not, it's not going to change.
We have lives and Mouse has exams to study for and can't be going in circles with you indefinitely.

Ironically, it's only because of that free speech that you're able to continue with your b*tching and moaning.

[yerazhishda]

Re: Banning Turks

It is what it is guys. The reasons have been explained to you. Whether you agree or not, it's not going to change.
We have lives and Mouse has exams to study for and can't be going in circles with you indefinitely.

Ok...it's not like I'm holding a gun telling him to respond. I told him he's free not to respond.

Ironically, it's only because of that free speech that you're able to continue with your b*tching and moaning.

When did I ever support banning free speech around here? Free speech is good but not at the cost of disgracing and insulting Armenians.

[Siggie]

Re: Banning Turks

When did I ever support banning free speech around here? Free speech is good but not at the cost of disgracing and insulting Armenians.

How about banning for annoying and insulting mods/admins?