Movses banned? Winoman banned? Who's next? Oh ME!

[UFraidees]

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Movses was banned for making that thread which I wholeheartedly agree with? Winoman was banned/suspended for God knows what? What's wrong with you people? Have you heard of FREEDOM OF SPEECH?? What is this place turning into? The Islamic Republic of Iran? Such a shame... You might as well ban me, which you will after you read this thread (and then closing it)! We literally have 7 Armenian active members and 17 turks! Who cares if they wanna bash the Jews... it's an internet forum! Everyone is entitled to their opinion. The forum is NOT SERVING ITS PURPOSE!

You got your answer it seems in your own post. The axe is falling faster than effendi turkoman can ever dream of. I don't think the poster broke any rules, read this:

07-21-2005, 08:15 AM #5
Siggie
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Thanks for sharing your opinion.
Next time, try doing it in the feedback section where it belongs or private messaging a moderator.
__________________
"There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity"
~Goethe

http://forum.armenianclub.com/showthread.php?t=5953

"try doing it in the feedback section where it belongs"
"try doing it in the feedback section where it belongs"

[Cinderella]

I've said it countless times to those of you who have sent private messages.
We aren't interested in defending Jews and we aren't interested in silencing or censoring people.

What you say is one thing but what you are doing is something somewhat different. You are indeed silencing people, you are indeed censoring people and you are indeed defending Jews. I'm not just talking about the rule of no discussing the Jewish involvement in the Armenian Genocide which I think is outragious and comparable to telling the Jews that they're not to discuss the Nazi involvement in their holocaust, but that's the rule and so be it. I'm talking about posts that were about Armenians and Jews, but had nothing to do with the Jewish involvement in the Armenian Genocide and were deleted. I know you're going to play the "hateful anti-semitic" card, but how come this "hateful material" think comes into play only when it's about Jews and everyone else if fair game? Do you see the hypocracy in that? Do you see how you are applying to sets of wieghts and measures, one for the Jews and another for everyone else? Why are the Jews getting this special treatment? And don't deny it because it is very clear in your sticky in the Armenian Genocide section. Would anyone go crazy if we were to post about the German involvement in the Armenian Genocide? Would you post a sticky saying that it isn't to be discussed because it is hate? And why isn't discussing the Turks in the Armenian Genocide considered as hate? We're not just stupid people here that will believe anything we're told because we can see for ourselves and this far, the actions have been speaking much louder than the words.

Okay, discussions of the Jewish involvement in the Genocide are not allowed. Many of the posts and texts that have been posted have been regarded by many members as anti-sematic and hateful.
As our forum rules indicate, the posting of hateful material is not allowed.

I have seen a number of posts get deleted when they had nothing to do with "Jewish involvement in the Armenian Genocide". They were deleted because they weren't favorable to the Jews and I don't see why this should be of concern to any Armenian if the facts contained within are true.

We are simply trying to preserve this as a place where people, primarily Armenians, can come to interact with [other] Armenians, talk about Armenia, Armenian culture, etc and feel welcome to do so.

Then it's those few beligerants that you should be focusing on as they are the ones causing all the trouble and starting the fighting. "Your reactions to people contesting what you say is starting to get hateful and violent.... Don't start a shouting match.". It is quite clear who the troublemaker is. As for Movses, I think Karoaper said exactly what I and probably most people think. "He never uttered a hateful word, just his ideas and opinions." but he was banned.

When a particular topic cannot be discussed in a civil way and is changing the entire atmosphere of the forum, we don't really have another choice, but to ask that that topic not be discussed.

So what you're saying is that all I would have to do is go to sections of the forum and act uncivilized and you will have no choice but to ask that that topic not be discussed? I'm so sure! Why not look at WHO is the one that cannot discuss the particular topic in a civil way and deal with that/those individuals instead of depriving everyone else?

We pleaded with people already to be civil, mature, and tolerant of others' opinions, but that hasn't happened.

That's right and it's because you allowed it and it was one poster in particular why was the cause of it all. From what I have read and seen going on, you allowed one individual in particular to rampage throughout the forum completely intolerant of anyone disagreeing with him. Actually, it wasn't even that. He was going and attacking people who were giving opinions that he didn't like, regardless of whether they were in reply to him or not and in most cases, none were addressed to him. He just decided that those opinions are wrong and he won't allow that poster to express them. And you let him do whatever he wanted. You let him attack people repeatedly, you let him insult people repeatedly, you let him disrupt discussions repeatedly. He was the only one doing this (besides that fly that was buzzing around and not even worth mentioning), yet you want everyone to share the blame. There are many good posters here that have intelligent things to say and you let this one individual have his way even though he was the root cause of the problem.

The people most of you have seen be banned are the same 2 or 3 folks that are recreating accounts.

OK, supposing what you are saying is true (even though you're not doing to good in the honesty department right now). Can you show us at least where one of these 2 or 3 individuals were given even one warning for breaking forum rules before being banned? I don't think you did, I think you just banned them outright without even a single warning and not for three days which is a short enough time to endure and would have most probably have been accepted by those banned. But since you banned these people unfairly, without warning and forever. No wonder they created a new account.

[QUOTE]As for people being banned without warning... If someone just registers and says "I read your rules, but f*ck you and your rules, I'm gonna do what I want." they're going to banned. They're coming here with no respect for anyone.
Would you let someone like that in your house?

I treat all my guests with the same respect. If I told some guests that they have to strictly abide by the rules and others were allowed to do whatever they pleased, I would tell you f*ck you and your party too, but that's not exactly what he said, was it!

This is a privately operated website. Freedom of speech doesn't extend here.

Free speech exists everywhere whether you like it or not. This may be a privately operated website, but it has an Armenian flag at the top and that makes what goes on here, every Armenians business.

If what said violates the rules, there are going to warnings, suspensions, or bannings. If you read the rules, most of them are there in the interest of the other members here.

This is where I think Movses saw a problem. There were posts that were in no violation of any rules. Don't tell me I didn't see them because I did see them before they were deleted. I was reading one thread that I found extremely interesting, First Holocaust I think it was and even though it didn't violate any rules, it disappeared. I agree that most rules are in the intrest of everyone, but you have to apply these rules evenly accross the board and not show the favoritism which you have shown.

Sip is right. Moderators see a great deal that isn't visible to everyone else. Please trust that we are making decisions in the best interest of this forum and its members.

Sorry but I find it hard to trust people that aren't being completely honest. Maybe there are things we don't see, but there was plenty that we did see. I know it's not an easy job, but instead of making things easier, you complicated things even further by letting one poster in particular wreak havok in this forum instead of dealing with him then and there, and for that, you only have yourselves to blame. You could have simply told him to behave himself and respect other peoples and right to express their opinions, but you didn't do that, you let him carry on his rampage.

And there's one thing that I want you to understand. If I didn't care, I wouldn't have taken the time to write this.

[Cinderella]

Thanks for sharing your opinion.
Next time, try doing it in the feedback section where it belongs or private messaging a moderator.

http://forum.armenianclub.com/showthread.php?t=5953

"try doing it in the feedback section where it belongs"
"try doing it in the feedback section where it belongs"

Thank you for sharing this. I had not seen this but now I know what Movses was talking about when he wrote he wasn't interested in PMing. He was completely right to post in the feedback section. Siggie clearly says that PMing a moderator is one option and the feedback section is another, but he got banned anyway and he was absolutely right about rules not being applied evenly accross the board and rules being made up as they go along. I guess they just didn't like someone daring to stand up and calling them out on their pretenses.

The moderators are completely in the wrong here. I think Movses is owed an apology and he should be unbanned immidately, but watch them come up with some other lame excuse.

[Cinderella]

He was banned for joining and then the next day creating a thread in which he said he didn't care what the rules were, he wasn't going to follow them. That isn't his decision to make and it's a little audacious coming from someone who has been a member all of one day.

You're not being totally honest here and you have the audacity to make false accusations against and slandering an Armenian member that posted intelligent posts. He didn't say he didn't care what the rules were and there is no way you can misconstrue what he wrote as not caring what the rules are. He said he wasn't interested in PMing (which was one of the two options as per Siggie) and he chose to post it in the feedback section instead (which was the second option as per Siggie). So you're completely in the wrong and you have no justification for banning Movses. My guess is that he sent a PM and he was either ignored or lied to, so he wanted to discuss it out in the open and get other people's "feedback" instead of the lame excuses that we're seeing here. And I wholheatedly agree with everything Movses wrote and you owe him an apology for the slander.

I Protest!

Why is it that I see some members get instantly banned with no warning or anything and please spare me the crap about "rules" and other such total BS, because we're not blind and we can see where certain members get at least one warning and others get two warnings and then get only three days off while the others get banned permanently without even one warning.

So what's the deal? Are some rules more sacred than others? Is violently attacking Armenians less of a crime than criticizing the Jews? It sure looks that way to me.

BTW, I'm not interested in this PM thing either. If I have something to say, I will say it right here in the open and if you have something to say, say it right here so everyone can see what's really going on.

Winoman was banned for very inappropriate posts he made that were deleted. You didn't see them because they were deleted.

Yes, he was doing this for a very long time and you simply ignored it. I was actually wondering if this was actually allowed because it seemed that it was. I don't know what made you finally notice, but all he got for all the trouble he caused was a little slap on the wrist while others who have done much less or nothing get the death sentence.

Learn to be fair and you will get due respect.

[Siggie]

I have seen what has been going on and some people aren't being completely honest here.

This is what Movses actually wrote (unless there is something else I misses or was sent by PM).



But we are told that Movses said something else.



Can you please show us where Movses wrote this?

Can you please show us where I said that Movses said that or any specific member for that matter?

[Siggie]

You're not being totally honest here and you have the audacity to make false accusations against and slandering an Armenian member that posted intelligent posts. He didn't say he didn't care what the rules were and there is no way you can misconstrue what he wrote as not caring what the rules are. He said he wasn't interested in PMing (which was one of the two options as per Siggie) and he chose to post it in the feedback section instead (which was the second option as per Siggie). So you're completely in the wrong and you have no justification for banning Movses. My guess is that he sent a PM and he was either ignored or lied to, so he wanted to discuss it out in the open and get other people's "feedback" instead of the lame excuses that we're seeing here. And I wholheatedly agree with everything Movses wrote and you owe him an apology for the slander.



Yes, he was doing this for a very long time and you simply ignored it. I was actually wondering if this was actually allowed because it seemed that it was. I don't know what made you finally notice, but all he got for all the trouble he caused was a little slap on the wrist while others who have done much less or nothing get the death sentence.

Learn to be fair and you will get due respect.

Actually we do have justification for banning him. He was banned twice before and he just created a new name. That's plenty reason itself, but he was also very disrespectful. While we're posting things from other threads...
Here's the link to the forum rules. It clearly says that moderator/admin actions should not be questioned on the board. Giving feedback about whether you agree with a particular rule is one thing, but that's not all he said.

I understand how you might think that our actions weren't fair, but please realize that there are countless posts which were deleted that you did not see.

[Anonymouse]

What a party!

[Cinderella]

Can you please show us where I said that Movses said that or any specific member for that matter?

There were only two people that were being discussed, Movses and Winoman. We know Winoman was warned (although I don't know how many times), why Winoman was banned and for how long.

That only leaves Movses.

"As for people being banned without warning... If someone just registers and says "I read your rules, but f*ck you and your rules, I'm gonna do what I want." they're going to banned."

Movses is the only one that I know of who can be that "someone just registers" and confirmed by Loseyourname.

"He was banned for joining and then the next day creating a thread in which he said he didn't care what the rules were, he wasn't going to follow them...and it's a little audacious coming from someone who has been a member all of one day."

Which was in reply to CatWoman's

"ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Movses was banned for making that thread which I wholeheartedly agree with?"

So stop playing your silly games because everyone know who you were referring to, because you were trying to justify Movses' banning and that the reason you gave..

Movese was the only one who had just registered and posted anything that even remotely resembled what you and Loseyouname claim, misconstrued and falsely accused him of as a justifiaction for a banning without warning as there was no one else being discussed.

[Siggie]

What you say is one thing but what you are doing is something somewhat different. You are indeed silencing people, you are indeed censoring people and you are indeed defending Jews.

No, we weren't out to silence people or prevent them from saying what they were saying, but we had to ask that the discussion stop because it was creating a flame war. It was just insults back and forth rather than a discussion.

Then it's those few beligerants that you should be focusing on as they are the ones causing all the trouble and starting the fighting. "Your reactions to people contesting what you say is starting to get hateful and violent.... Don't start a shouting match.". It is quite clear who the troublemaker is. As for Movses, I think Karoaper said exactly what I and probably most people think. "He never uttered a hateful word, just his ideas and opinions." but he was banned.

He had done plenty to get banned under other user names.

OK, supposing what you are saying is true (even though you're not doing to good in the honesty department right now). Can you show us at least where one of these 2 or 3 individuals were given even one warning for breaking forum rules before being banned? I don't think you did, I think you just banned them outright without even a single warning and not for three days which is a short enough time to endure and would have most probably have been accepted by those banned. But since you banned these people unfairly, without warning and forever. No wonder they created a new account.

No, I cannot show you were they warned because it was in private messages. I am refering to the original posters and not their countless accounts that were created after being banned the first time. I cannot post private messages because they were sent and received in confidence.

Free speech exists everywhere whether you like it or not. This may be a privately operated website, but it has an Armenian flag at the top and that makes what goes on here, every Armenians business.

The flag at the top doesn't mean it's your business. Are you going to go into an Armenian owned business and demand to see their books and records the way you're demanding to see private messages here? I don't think so.

This is where I think Movses saw a problem. There were posts that were in no violation of any rules. Don't tell me I didn't see them because I did see them before they were deleted. I was reading one thread that I found extremely interesting, First Holocaust I think it was and even though it didn't violate any rules, it disappeared. I agree that most rules are in the intrest of everyone, but you have to apply these rules evenly accross the board and not show the favoritism which you have shown.

And how exactly would you know that you saw every thread and every post he made before it was deleted. If it was indeed deleted before you saw it, you would have no way of seeing it.

Sorry but I find it hard to trust people that aren't being completely honest. Maybe there are things we don't see, but there was plenty that we did see. I know it's not an easy job, but instead of making things easier, you complicated things even further by letting one poster in particular wreak havok in this forum instead of dealing with him then and there, and for that, you only have yourselves to blame. You could have simply told him to behave himself and respect other peoples and right to express their opinions, but you didn't do that, you let him carry on his rampage.

And there's one thing that I want you to understand. If I didn't care, I wouldn't have taken the time to write this.

You're right. It isn't an easy job. We're members of this board too.. .we're not here just to delete insults. Yes, we did accept the responsibility of our positions and we're not trying to wiggle out of fulfilling them, but we had like 10-15 reported posts in our mailboxes daily when that topic was being discussed. It's too hard to deal with that. We'd be deleting at least that many posts per day.

We dealt with everyone involved. We most certainly did ask many times for everyone to behave and respect other members. We were ignored though. We tried to avoid having to ask everyone not to discuss the topic at all.

We try to moderate quitely. Occasionally you'll see someone warned in a thread, but for the most part we send private messages because we don't want to disrupt the flow of the thread and take it offtopic. It's difficult to see the efforts we've made to deal with the problem in other ways.

[Siggie]

There were only two people that were being discussed, Movses and Winoman. We know Winoman was warned (although I don't know how many times), why Winoman was banned and for how long.

That only leaves Movses.



Movses is the only one that I know of who can be that "someone just registers" and confirmed by Loseyourname.



Which was in reply to CatWoman's



So stop playing your silly games because everyone know who you were referring to, because you were trying to justify Movses' banning and that the reason you gave..

Movese was the only one who had just registered and posted anything that even remotely resembled what you and Loseyouname claim, misconstrued and falsely accused him of as a justifiaction for a banning without warning as there was no one else being discussed.

You've never heard of a hypothetical right?
You read his post... tell me honestly that after reading his post and the forum rules, you didn't see any violation. In addition to that I've just told you that he was banned under different usernames previously.

If you are not happy with the way this forum is being run you really don't have to post here. Please find a forum that suits you.

:rollseyes: