The Ottomans

[ArmSurvival]

Re: The Ottomans

I think the majority of the guys here are jumping to conclusions without balancing the facts.
1.- ofcourse the christian minority was paing more/higher taxes than the rest of muslim ottomans because they weren angaged directly with "long lasting millitary obligations" .The armenians were exempt of millitary duty(depending time section this could lasted 4-6 years of duration), finally the armenians were concentrated in their business activities from where they had the opportunity to gain more money than the rest of the muslims..so they may pay higher taxes obviously.

Even if you don't count all the Turks/Muslims that were in the army, they still outnumbered Armenians by a large margin, so what excuse do you have for all those Muslims that were not in the army? That is a very moot point. They simply were not educated at nearly the same level that Armenians were (proportionally speaking, of course).

2.- the the beginning of XX century is obviously different than pre-ottoman era....when you look 1880 onwards the Otto. empaire had nothing left but national debths to pay..there were no money left to pay to the western countries to close Ottomans debths....this was the correct time to take the famous SILK ROAD COMMERCIAL BENEFIT from the armenians and give to the ottoman financers....".Who were the banckers of the empair "the bodies that financed during the Ottoman high time now wanted ALL THE MONEY BACK....logicly for the cost of armenians ofcourse..who else??..the ones who had the money in the first place ...since the rest of muslims were engaged with warfare ,were low income stock....ofcourse the debth of Ottoman empair had no justification of looting armenians belongings.....the looters mad a plan to control the silk road business venture...and they did it....finally "the banckers" had to pay a heavy ransom in 1930-45 in other part of the world....this was perhaps Gods mighty judgment..DO YOU THINK ANY ONE WHO STARTED THIS GREATE POLITICAL PROBLEM WILL NOT HAVE PEACFUL REST IN THIS WORLD...I SAY IF WE ALL BELIVE IN GOD WE OLSO BELIVE TO HIS JUDGMENT WHICH NO ANY BODY CAN ESCAPE IT.....ANY ONE IN THIS WORLD SHOULD RESPECT THE OTHER AND IF NECESSARY SHOULD PAY APPOLOGY TO SAVE ITS FUTURE.....

Its true that the Ottomans of the early 20th century might have thought they were inheriting a rich trade route by killing the Armenians, but they were blind to see that they were also killing their most talented businessmen and a large part of their professionals, and Anatolia's economy basically collapsed because of it. They are still barely recovering from this massive blunder.


And if you keep bringing up "God's judgement" then I'm going to have to respectfully stop conversing with you. I don't want to open this large can of worms, but lets just say that I don't share your views about the universe, and it is absurd to come to conclusions based on such vague reasoning.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: The Ottomans

" I dont care if any one understands the "gods judgments"...

My point is that if God is omnipotent, a mere human would not be able to comprehend his master-plan for the universe, and this includes you. To try and claim that you know or understand God's judgement is nonsensical.


And originally, I was only trying to point out that your claim of "God's judgement" as the cause of the Armenian genocide is about as rational as radical evangelical preachers who claim that 9/11 was caused by homosexuals and abortionists, rather than by people flying planes into buildings. You are just shifting the blame of the genocide from Turks onto something unexplainable, which is asinine and regressive.


But anyways, we are not going to make any progress if we continue discussing the supernatural, you can open a separate thread if you want to discuss it. Lets just stick with the Ottomans here.

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

The Ottomans called the Armenians the "loyal" millet or community.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: The Ottomans

Yea, but when a couple of thousand Ottoman-Armenians defected to the Russian side, they decided to punish every Armenian they could get their hands on, which was in the millions, most of which were women, children and the elderly. So its too bad the loyalty wasn't mutual.

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

Yea, but when a couple of thousand Ottoman-Armenians defected to the Russian side, they decided to punish every Armenian they could get their hands on, which was in the millions, most of which were women, children and the elderly. So its too bad the loyalty wasn't mutual.

of course it wasn't an arangement between more or less equal partners. The Ottomans found the Armenians the most accomodating of the subject peoples. But after losing territories in the Balkans, they became very paranoid. The slightest sign of 'disloyalty' by Armenians was seen as a serious threat

[ArmSurvival]

Re: The Ottomans

You are correct, lampron. The Ottomans couldn't understand that Armenians did not want to destroy the Turks, they simply wanted their traditional homeland as either an autonomous region or an independent state. When the Ottoman authorities began exiling all Armenians, they realized that independence was the only option.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: The Ottomans

you make errors you commit sins you will be punished ....you help people unrequitedly you will rewarded....havent you experienced yet !!!...it applies to human and nations.....all they PAY IT FINALLY, dont coment on it

What you said is just a theory. There are millions of examples of horrible people who did not pay for any of their crimes. The fact that politicians and businessmen rule the world already says a lot about this theory.

it couldnt be pure coincedence ...it doesnt make any sense your statment

I never said anything about coincidence... you obviously didn't understand my statement.

you make errors you commit sins you will be punished

So you're trying to say that Armenians did something to "deserve" the genocide. Again, you are justifying what the Turks have done and are throwing the blame on Armenians. Regressive, uninformed, borderline treasonous; there are a hundred negative ways to sum up your line of thinking.

It doesn't mean that Armenians shouldn't recognize their mistakes when they commit them, but to say that the Turks were justified, and justified by divine right, to commit genocide against us, is as regressive an idea as I have seen.

[Artandsky]

Re: The Ottomans

To lampron
I just do not understand, what is your deal about Armenians being good or bad about Ottomans?
Try to understand the simple thing, it is a natural desire for a self respecting nation to seek its Independence, no matter how good were Ottomans for Armenians it is about freedom and dignity.
Do you consider your subjects as sheep's? Who do you think you nation was to had a right to control the destiny of other nations? Stop this bull sheet!
I really hate this worldwide Hippocratic mindset. From one side a nation has a right for self determination and from the other....
Well f..k Turkey trying to suppress Kurds
f..k GB trying to suppress Zimbabwe
f..k China for Tebet
f..k USA for IRAK and Mideastern
f..k Russia for Chechnya
f..k all those who are trying suppress weaker!

[ArmSurvival]

Re: The Ottomans

Well I'm actually glad that I misunderstood you. But you have to understand that when you speak vaguely then it becomes easy to misunderstand your statements.

lets think why the armenians had to pay 1,5 million ransom ....have we betrayed our church,our christian belif.... we misuse THE GIVEN DIVINE power that GOD gave us ,and colobrate with EVIL TO get off with a whole skin...because it was easy......"

Please get real. Armenians had several successful states (and an empire) before Christianity even existed. Again, lets stick to real events instead of theorizing about the unknown.

but Iam stating that the sins will be punished .....blood will be paid by blood....

Yes, the perpetrators and deniers of the genocide will pay.

[lampron]

Re: The Ottomans

To lampron
I just do not understand, what is your deal about Armenians being good or bad about Ottomans?
Try to understand the simple thing, it is a natural desire for a self respecting nation to seek its Independence, no matter how good were Ottomans for Armenians it is about freedom and dignity.
Do you consider your subjects as sheep's? Who do you think you nation was to had a right to control the destiny of other nations? Stop this bull sheet!
I really hate this worldwide Hippocratic mindset. From one side a nation has a right for self determination and from the other....
Well f..k Turkey trying to suppress Kurds
f..k GB trying to suppress Zimbabwe
f..k China for Tebet
f..k USA for IRAK and Mideastern
f..k Russia for Chechnya
f..k all those who are trying suppress weaker!

This thread is about Ottoman and Armenian history. My point is that today the Ottomans are seen as perpetrators of genocide and the destroyers of Armenian civilization in Anatolia.
But 200 or 300 years ago Armenians might have seen the Ottomans differently. Not necessarily positively, but also not as negatively as today. Remember at the peak of their power the Ottomans were landing troops on the Italian peninsula. It is even possible that some Armenians in the empire were proud of the Ottomans. Human beings become attracted to those who are powerful or successful
As for today, yes Turkey has been violating rights of ethnic communities. And Tibet deserves to have real autonomy. But this thread is about history.