Armenian unity as a political, social and military force during the genocide years

[Joseph]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Russian Armenian soldiers remained behind, but they did no fighting until they lost Kars without firing a single bullet in protest. Kars, a city they could identify with as part of their Russian Armenian borders, was sold out to the Turks. The Russian Armenians played along with the Treaty of Batum, and expected that Turks would stop their bloodshed at those borders. For this reason, they did not bother to defend Erzerum in 1918, a fortress-city that had enough ammunition and provisions to last at least a year under siege, and with combined Armenian forces that for the first time in the entire history of the Armenian revolutionary movement, outnumbed the Turkish detachment on its eastern frontier.

Instead, the Russian Armenian soldiers had no moral to fight a battle they did not consider their own, and abandoned General Antranik and General Nazarbekian at the prime moment when they could finally liberate Western Armenia and naturally defend Russian Armenia by doing so. They fled back to Tblisi, Karabagh, etc... without firing a bullet.

My source is "General Antranik and the Armenian Revolutionary Movement" by Antranig Chalabian.

If you have alternate sources which refute what I have described, I am all ears.

If not, I will "disgrace our nation" until you kill me, or until we all commit ourselves to never divide ourselves again like this. Believe me, this is not an attack on Russian Armenians, but on how we failed to act as a united nation during the bloodiest chapter of our history. Turkish Armenia was not as united as it needed to be either in order to prevent the genocide there, they suffered from wishful thinking by appeasing Turks. They had to bleed almost to death to realize once and for all that only by fighting could they secure their lives and dignity. Unfortunately, Russian Armenians needed to go through the same hell before they belatedly came upon the same realization, in the process, not defending Erzerum or Kars, not even firing a bullet at the enemy when they occupied them.

Sardarabad was the moment when Armenians came together at last, for the first time, to actually make a united fight against the advancing Turkish Army. Syunik, Artsakh and even Nakhitchevan were the regions of Russian Armenia that tried a true local resistance to Turks, Syunik's resistance being so worthy that it was able to singlehandedly repell the British from annexing it to Azerbaijan the way it did to Karabagh. Unfortunately, Nakhitchevan and Artsakh did not fare so well, but today's Artsakhtsis have performed miracles that only having a true warrior spirit can accomplish.
It is these examples of heroism that are a light for the Armenians to follow, not blind defense of anything our people have ever done, especially when it hurt our nation by unnecessarily surrendering thousands of souls to be massacred or turning proud once families who worked hard on their land into widowed or orphaned refugees if they were lucky enough to survive.

Sadly, this is true. Also, read about Anastas Mikoyan, he was one of the worst cowards, he and his band of "soldiers". The battlefield performance {or non-performance} of the Armenian dilitantes from Tiflis was the worst though. They had fine horse, guns and uniforms but avoided battle at all costs.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Armenians back then were not the same what they are now, after being under foreign rule for almost 600 years they come to govern themselves. You also got 2 communities in the west and the east. One has been influenced by the Turks and the others by the Russian and Persians. There was very little contact between the two communities.

And look at the other countries living under Turkish rule almost all of them got out of Turkish rule, we were one of the very few who didn't rebel on a large scale. There were a few cities that rebelled but most of the Armenians stayed loyal. Even during the genocide they stayed loyal. They were happy that they could live their lives in peace even if they had to pay for it. Most of our people weren't nationalistic at all. There was a little minority in every city.

Like I said in the beginning they were a very different people of what we have become today. And why do you tell only about Russian Armenians and not Turkish Armenians. Because some of them didn't even think that Russian Armenians were real Armenians and they were the only ones that were the real ones. So both of them are guilty. And let us not forget our leaders who were stupid enough to sign away those lands. Let us hope we wont get any leader like that in the future. because this time it will be our end.

And this wasn't the first time look at our history and you will see that Armenians were a lot of times fighting against each other and even fighting in the enemy army against Hayastan. Let's take Vartanank as an example some of the major houses were fighting for the Persians against Vartan, so this isn't really new things like that.

[UrMistake]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Anastas Mikoyan people that are friend with Staline worth the hell.He were politican seeking power.He belived in Soviet Union more than Armenia.The man achived his goals we live in his created world.

[londontsi]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

Anastas Mikoyan was sent to Armenia to organise/run the purges as if we hadn't suffered enough by then.
We lost many intellectuals as well as ordinary folk.
The question has to be will present and future leaders stop being organs of the foreign powers.
A lot depends on the ordinary people. They must articulate their opposition rather than act like "loyal" sheep. Easier said than done I fear.

[jgk3]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

You're right, both sides, Turkish and Russian Armenian were guilty for failing to unite at a moment where we badly needed to. Armenians have been used to being divided into separate factions that favour different regional powers, and in many ways, it has aided to keep us on the map throughout history during times we did not have a country. This "divided we prevail" strategy however did exactly the opposite when the whole world abandoned us to the genocidal hands of Turkey, the most gloomy point being the dissolution of the Russian Army following the their nation's revolution.

We Armenians today, as you said, have been forced, by the bloody chapter of the genocide, to change from a people who identify with different homelands, to a people who identify a single homeland. To do otherwise is to hate what we are.

The reason why this protracted discussion about how disunited we were in 1918 began is because foreign agents like Levon exist today, trying to divide our homeland once more by setting Karabaghtsis and Hayastantsis as enemies, and ultimately, delivering both sides to hell, to get eating up by our unfriendly neighbours.

Our unity ensures that we can defend ourselves against Azerbaijan, our disunity ensures that we have civil war, and then massacres by Azerbaijan.

[Anoush]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

You're right, both sides, Turkish and Russian Armenian were guilty for failing to unite at a moment where we badly needed to. Armenians have been used to being divided into separate factions that favour different regional powers, and in many ways, it has aided to keep us on the map throughout history during times we did not have a country. This "divided we prevail" strategy however did exactly the opposite when the whole world abandoned us to the genocidal hands of Turkey, the most gloomy point being the dissolution of the Russian Army following the their nation's revolution.

We Armenians today, as you said, have been forced, by the bloody chapter of the genocide, to change from a people who identify with different homelands, to a people who identify a single homeland. To do otherwise is to hate what we are.

The reason why this protracted discussion about how disunited we were in 1918 began is because foreign agents like Levon exist today, trying to divide our homeland once more by setting Karabaghtsis and Hayastantsis as enemies, and ultimately, delivering both sides to hell, to get eating up by our unfriendly neighbours.

Our unity ensures that we can defend ourselves against Azerbaijan, our disunity ensures that we have civil war, and then massacres by Azerbaijan.

jgk; from 1990 through 1993 a great deal of Hayastancis from Armenia went and fought against our enemies in Karabakh and the result as we have it at least some of our Karabakh lands back and freedom for us. When it comes to Levon and his deceitful ways, I could not agree with you more. Already we are landlocked and very small; we have no other way or means but to be united against our man eating beast neighbours (both of them; the turks and the azeri-tatars).

[londontsi]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

I am certainly not a fan of Levon. History had given him an opportunity on a plate to establish himself as one of the greats of our history, a father of the nation, instead he initiated and established the culture of corruption and vote rigging which subsequent presidents find it too tasty to give up.
It will require a giant of a man as president to alter thing. I cannot see that person till the horizon.

[Haykakan]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

LTP really is the enemy of our people. As for vote riging- i don't much care for democracy anyways because it is by far the most currupt and warlike form of government ever created. Ill take a smart capable dictator over any democratic joke of a government.USA pushes for democracy because such governments are easier to control. If one leader refuses your biribe, in a democracy you simply go to the next one until you find the one who is willing to take it.The key is a dictator-strongman-president-king-whatever the hell you wana call him needs to be smart and interested in doiong the right things for his people.

[Anoush]

Re: Nagorno-Karabagh: Military Balance Between Armenia & Azerbaijan

LTP really is the enemy of our people. As for vote riging- i don't much care for democracy anyways because it is by far the most currupt and warlike form of government ever created. Ill take a smart capable dictator over any democratic joke of a government.USA pushes for democracy because such governments are easier to control. If one leader refuses your biribe, in a democracy you simply go to the next one until you find the one who is willing to take it.The key is a dictator-strongman-president-king-whatever the hell you wana call him needs to be smart and interested in doiong the right things for his people.

Yes, we have seen what democracy does - only for the benefit of heryas and the herya controlled the US. Who needs it? But only if our dictator would also be patriotic enough to make his countrymen have good jobs to stay above poorhouses and much less corrupted.

[londontsi]

Re: Armenian unity as a political, social and military force during the genocide year

Yes there can be benevolent dictators, but what do you do when a long serving "good"
Dictator’s time is up through old age or otherwise.
I think good democratic institutions with checks and balances, healthy press, smart populace rather than sheep and slogan politics should be the way forward.

A democratic system on its own means nothing. The economy is the most important. Fair distribution of wealth has to be at its core. This is where corruption starts.

We need politicians with a national vision. A politician with vision is more powerful than a dictator since he is driving his ideas through debate and by definition needs intelligent and supporting population to succeed. Show me a nation with a dictator at its head and a smart population.

Sadly I think this vision is lacking in our current political elite.