Caucasian Albania

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Armenians came from Phyrgia to Western Anatolia .Not Caucasus before 18 century.

"1 million out of 1 million and 300 thousand of Armenians, residing in Transcaucasia were not aboriginal residents and they came there from our lands."
N.I.Shavrov. New challenges to Russian business in the Transcaucasus - upcoming sale of Mugan to aliens. S-Petersburg. 1911, p. 59-61.

Another respected and well-known Armenian scholar, Dr. George Bournoutian writes:

"prior to the Russian conquest the Armenians accounted for some 20 percent of the total population of Eastern Armenia, and the Muslims (Azerbaijani) 80 percent; following Russian annexation, 57,000 Armenian immigrants arrived from Persia and the Ottoman Empire and 35,000 Muslims emigrated from Eastern Armenia. By 1832, therefore, the Armenians formed...half of the population".

"The Ethnic Composition and the Socioconomic Condition of Eastern Armenia in the First Half of the Nineteenth Century," in Suny, _Transcaucasia_, 79; see also Bournoutian, _Eastern Armenia in the Last Decades of Persian Rule, 1807-1928: A Political and Socio-Economic Study of the Khanate of Erivan on the Eve of the Russian Conquest_ (Malibu. Calif.:Undena Publications, 1982), p. 76.

According to Encyclopædia Britannica:' 'The Azerbaijanis are of mixed ethnic origin, the oldest element deriving from the indigenous population of eastern Transcaucasia and possibly from the Medians of northern İran. This population was Persianized during the period of the Sasanian dynasty of Iran (3rd–7th century AD), but, after the region's conquest by the Seljuq Turks in the 11th century, the inhabitants were Turkicized, and further Turkicization of the population occurred in the ensuing centuries.

I rest my case.You really should learn history and know the borders of Armenia trough the ages

[Raynec]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Even if Armenians came from Phyrgia, we were still there many centuries before the turks came and before the formation of the caucasian tatars as a cohesive ethnic group in the 16th century.

Armenians came from Phyrgia to Western Anatolia .Not Caucasus before 18 century.

"1 million out of 1 million and 300 thousand of Armenians, residing in Transcaucasia were not aboriginal residents and they came there from our lands."
N.I.Shavrov. New challenges to Russian business in the Transcaucasus - upcoming sale of Mugan to aliens. S-Petersburg. 1911, p. 59-61.

Another respected and well-known Armenian scholar, Dr. George Bournoutian writes:

"prior to the Russian conquest the Armenians accounted for some 20 percent of the total population of Eastern Armenia, and the Muslims (Azerbaijani) 80 percent; following Russian annexation, 57,000 Armenian immigrants arrived from Persia and the Ottoman Empire and 35,000 Muslims emigrated from Eastern Armenia. By 1832, therefore, the Armenians formed...half of the population".

"The Ethnic Composition and the Socioconomic Condition of Eastern Armenia in the First Half of the Nineteenth Century," in Suny, _Transcaucasia_, 79; see also Bournoutian, _Eastern Armenia in the Last Decades of Persian Rule, 1807-1928: A Political and Socio-Economic Study of the Khanate of Erivan on the Eve of the Russian Conquest_ (Malibu. Calif.:Undena Publications, 1982), p. 76.

According to Encyclopædia Britannica:' 'The Azerbaijanis are of mixed ethnic origin, the oldest element deriving from the indigenous population of eastern Transcaucasia and possibly from the Medians of northern İran. This population was Persianized during the period of the Sasanian dynasty of Iran (3rd–7th century AD), but, after the region's conquest by the Seljuq Turks in the 11th century, the inhabitants were Turkicized, and further Turkicization of the population occurred in the ensuing centuries.

[Armanen]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Even if Armenians came from Phyrgia, we were still there many centuries before the turks came and before the formation of the caucasian tatars as a cohesive ethnic group in the 16th century.

[Raynec]

Re: Caucasian Albania

As with many ancient peoples, the origin of the Armenians contains elements of myth and unresolved scholarly arguments. Many historians give a rather over-simplified account of the origin of the Armenian people. According to the Greek Historian, Herodotus, the Armenians had originally lived in Thrace from where they crossed to Phrygia in Asia Minor and had then gradually moved west of the Euphrates River to what became Armenia. The Historian states that Armenians came from two directions, one group from the west, or Phrygia, and the other from the Southeast, or the Mesopotamian and Zagros region. In other words, according to the ancient Greeks, the Armenians were not the original inhabitants of the region.

Other Historians indicate that from the ninth to the sixth centuries B.C., a large part of historical Armenia, called Ararat by its contemporary neighbors, comprised the Kingdom of Urartu. This Kingdom disintegrated during the middle of the sixth century whereupon the native tribes, including the Armen and the Nayiri groups were unified and became part of the dominant Hayassa group.

Their Indo-European language was imposed on the conquered Urartuans, who spoke a non-Aryan language. Thus did the Armenian Nation take form, its people being the political, ethnic, and cultural successors to the Hurrians, pre-Hittites, Hayassas, Nayiris and Urartuans. This newly formed nation was called "Hai" after the name of the Hayassa tribal federation and the country "Hayastan". The neighboring peoples called the Armenians "Armen" and their country "Armenia" after the Armens.
Today, Armenians can be found in every corner of the globe. Although, the Armenian people are a very small ethnic group, Armenians have made significant contributions in every field of endeavor. Long known as excellent educators, scientists, artisans, musicians, and merchants, Armenians have used their skills to benefit the countries that have given them a home.

A History of the Armenian People, Volume I, Pre-History to 1500 A.D., by George A. Bournoutian

Armenian scholar, B. Ishkhanian, wrote in 1916: "The Armenians residing in Nagorno-Karabakh are partly aborigines and descendants of the ancient Albanians ..., and partly refugees from Turkey and Iran, for whom Azerbaijani lands offered a refuge from persecution and oppression."

One of the most authoritative Armenian scholars, Ronald Grigor Suny described in his book "Looking Toward Ararat" (London, 1986, p.82) the borders of Arshakuni (Arsacid) Armenian kingdom (52 A.D.-428 A.D.), which was a Roman and Persian vassal, as reaching their most Northern point to the west of Gokchai (Sevan) lake whilst occupying only two thirds of present day Zangezur to the east.

Another Armenian author M. Belakian writes that mountaneous Karabakh was part of the Albania rather than Arshakuni Armenian kingdom until at least IV century A.D. (he also writes about Armenians constituting minority in Erevan until 19th century, and the inflow of Armenians during that time in the Caucasus).

Also it is interesting to note that according to maps included in the "History of the Armenian people" (Vol I, Erevan, 1951-52) by the well-known Armenian historian, S.T. Eremyan, both banks of Kura were included as part of Caucasian Albania in II century B.C. It depicted the regions of the right bank of Kura, such as Sakashena, Otena (Utik), Caspiana (Paytakaran) and Orhistena (Artsakh) as Albanian.

Meanwhile, the well-known German-born (d. 1930) Soviet scientist, historian and scholar, V.V.Bartol'd also mentions the tribe of Chols, who too were of Oghuz stock, and lived in Caucasian Albania in B.C. era.

Today, many direct descendants of the Albanians -- Gels, Legs, Kryzes, Hinalugs, Alpans and Udins -- live in Azerbaijan. But only the latter have kept their original religion and language. These are in addition to the Albanian tribes of Chols, Gargars and others, who have since merged into modern-day Azerbaijanis.
A little information from the Kitab-e Dede Qorgud epic, orally recited since at least the ninth-eleventh centuries. It mentions Alpan and Uruz, who were early Albanian kings (in B.C.) It also mentiones Gazan-khan, who is also mentioned in VII-century "History of Albania" by Moisey Kalankatuiski (Musa Kalankatly).

Starting in the eighth century a large part of the population of Caucasian Albania was forcibly converted into Islam under the Arab caliphate. In the early eighth century the Arabs conquered Artsakh, as well as all of Albania, and Islam penetrated the area. (Until that time Gregorianism had flourished among the Christian population.)

[ninetoyadome]

Re: Caucasian Albania

A google search for "V.L.Velichko: Who are Armenians?" gets a mere 2 pages, some 50 results, and all are obvious Azeri propaganda websites.
Same for the second posting "The famous Russian historian, V.L.Velichko, wrote" again it gets only 2 pages.
"V.L.Velichko" + Armenians gets more, but still not that many, 789. Maybe most of the places these have been posted don't show up on seach engines or maybe I was wrong and it isn't that widely reposted.

I first came across the name V.L.Velichko a few years ago in the context of early examples of Georgian propaganda concerning Armenian and Georgian architecture. Didn't know the Azeri's were using him in a modern context - they must be scraping the barrel.

I first read about Velichko when an Azeri quoted from one of his works. I knew this guy had to be anti-Armenian and sure enough he was. The thing with Azeris is if a book, article, etc. does not include anti-Armenian sentiment than it is of no use to them.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Thats the problem, no matter how many times i answer they never learn and keep spreading the same BS. The Azeri govt has spread this BS for so long that the populace has to believe it.

A google search for "V.L.Velichko: Who are Armenians?" gets a mere 2 pages, some 50 results, and all are obvious Azeri propaganda websites.
Same for the second posting "The famous Russian historian, V.L.Velichko, wrote" again it gets only 2 pages.
"V.L.Velichko" + Armenians gets more, but still not that many, 789. Maybe most of the places these have been posted don't show up on seach engines or maybe I was wrong and it isn't that widely reposted.

I first came across the name V.L.Velichko a few years ago in the context of early examples of Georgian propaganda concerning Armenian and Georgian architecture. Didn't know the Azeri's were using him in a modern context - they must be scraping the barrel.

[ninetoyadome]

Re: Caucasian Albania

With that comment YOU are the troll in this thread.

Thank you ninetoyadome for your account of the origin and recent ressurection of that dubious Tsarist-period Velichko tract. Your words neatly tore it apart - and didn't take the usual (for this forum) route of just heaping personal abuse on its poster.

It was fairly obvious (to me anyway) on reading it, what its time period was and under what scenarios it was written (nacient Georgian nationalism as Georgia in the 1900s tried to reinvent itself and emerge from under Armenia's shadow), but to a casual reader that might not have been at all clear - and propaganda gains in strength from unchallenged repetition. I bet "Raynec" and others have been copypasting it into lots of forums.

Thats the problem, no matter how many times i answer they never learn and keep spreading the same BS. The Azeri govt has spread this BS for so long that the populace has to believe it. They openly spread all the anti-Armenian books throughout the country which have been banned in other countries. Also all Azeris will use that Pushkin quote without knowing the origins. When i tell that person to read the book without ignorantly posting the quote they tell me to read the book, lol.

[Armanen]

Re: Caucasian Albania

With that comment YOU are the troll in this thread.

Thank you ninetoyadome for your account of the origin and recent ressurection of that dubious Tsarist-period Velichko tract. Your words neatly tore it apart - and didn't take the usual (for this forum) route of just heaping personal abuse on its poster.

It was fairly obvious (to me anyway) on reading it, what its time period was and under what scenarios it was written (nacient Georgian nationalism as Georgia tried to reinvent itself and emerge from under Armenia shadow), but to a casual reader it might not have been at all clear and propaganda gains in strength from unchallenged repetition. I bet "Raynec" and others have been copypasting it into lots of forums.

Nah, I think you take the cake.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Caucasian Albania

No use arguing with a troll. I think he will be banned soon.

With that comment YOU are the troll in this thread.

Thank you ninetoyadome for your account of the origin and recent ressurection of that dubious Tsarist-period Velichko tract. Your words neatly tore it apart - and didn't take the usual (for this forum) route of just heaping personal abuse on its poster.

It was fairly obvious (to me anyway) on reading it, what its time period was and under what scenarios it was written (nacient Georgian nationalism as Georgia in the 1900s tried to reinvent itself and emerge from under Armenia's shadow), but to a casual reader that might not have been at all clear - and propaganda gains in strength from unchallenged repetition. I bet "Raynec" and others have been copypasting it into lots of forums.

[Armanen]

Re: Caucasian Albania

No use arguing with a troll. I think he will be banned soon.