Caucasian Albania

[Davo88]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Yes, very good, both of you! Though it may have not been obvious but my question in the beginning had a rhetorical side to it. Azeris CANNOT claim Albanian or Atropatenian heritage.

Sakhs were definitely a different entity, but that was 2600 years ago. In short, (my dumbed down explanation), 2500 years ago, they stopped calling themselves Sakh, and began to call themselves Armenian, just like all other originally non-Armenian tribes, because they ALL lived in a kingdom called Armenia.

What you basically mean is that they got eventually assimilated with Armenians.

Also something I wanted to add, have anyone of you guys ever seen the seal of the city of Nakhichevan? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...akhchivan2.png

It seems Azeries also claim Ararat as theirs, it is already an offence to know our Ararat is on Turkish territory, and it gets worse when you see not only a symbol of our faith but a symbol of our people next to the crescent star and in territory stolen from us.

Ashot, that's what I call a failed attempt to reproduce Ararat on their seal. So not only are they not creative enough to rename Nakhichevan which is in fact an Armenian name (Ichevan is a resting place for travellers), but they also claim Ararat as theirs! I thought that Muslims believe that Noah's Ark did not land on Ararat, but on Judi. Though I guess that Azeris are able to distort their religion as easily as they would change their culture, alphabet, homeland, history, wives, and so on.

[SevSpitak]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Yes, very good, both of you! Though it may have not been obvious but my question in the beginning had a rhetorical side to it. Azeris CANNOT claim Albanian or Atropatenian heritage.



What you basically mean is that they got eventually assimilated with Armenians.

Pretty much, but it happened even before the formation of Caucasian Albania.

Ashot, that's what I call a failed attempt to reproduce Ararat on their seal. So not only are they not creative enough to rename Nakhichevan which is in fact an Armenian name (Ichevan is a resting place for travellers), but they also claim Ararat as theirs! I thought that Muslims believe that Noah's Ark did not land on Ararat, but on Judi. Though I guess that Azeris are able to distort their religion as easily as they would change their culture, alphabet, homeland, history, wives, and so on.

Don't forget that "nakh" means "first" or "previous" in Armenian. Nakh-Ichevan means "first resting place," a direct reference to Noah's first home. In fact, Armenian tradition, from Khorenatsi's history, claims that Noah built his new (first) village in Nakhichevan (if I'm not mistaken).

[retro]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Sakhs were Scythian tribes who had settled in the region during Urartu (but they were not part of Urartu), which was succeeded by the Satrapy of Armina (Armenia).

It's my understanding that the Scythian tribes where to the North of Armenia, so it's likely that they interacted with Urartu. Ossetic like Tajikistani are the only know remnants of the Scytho-Sarmatian dialect. The Scythians (Alanic) ancestry is of intrest to me as. As according to Celtic mythology, Celtic noblity are said to be in part decended from the Scythian kings.

It's worth noting that in the Caucasus, haplogroup R1b is found in 43% of Ossetian males. Which I could well be the legacy of Celtic/Scytho interaction/conflict. As the Celts and Thracians expanded eastward eventually displacing the Scythians in the Balkans and Celtic culture was clearly influenced by the Scyths.

[SevSpitak]

Re: Caucasian Albania

It's my understanding that the Scythian tribes where to the North of Armenia, so it's likely that they interacted with Urartu.

The Cimmerians, entering Asia Minor through the Caucasus while fleeing Scythians, played a role in the demise of Phrygia/Phrygian kingdoms, while Medians & Scythians worked together to destroy Urartu.

Scythians were the main concern in the North to the Urartians, while Assyria was their concern to the South. Yet, there were many occasions where Urartians and Scythians had good relations as well.

[egeli]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Many ethnic Armenian nationalists seem to be proud of their "pure" genetic stock. As if the collective memory and culture of ancient Armenians is genetically passed down rather than socially learned.

Azerbaijan like Turkey has followed the 20th paradigm where every emerging nation-state must have historical legitimacy. I do not doubt the current Armenian nation's historical bond with ancient Armenians. It is much less contrived than Turkish identity.

However, this does make the Armenian nation-state any more legitimate than Turkey or Azerbaijan. Does Israel have territorial rights to Palestine just because of historical claims?

History is already biased enough at the academic level. With political influence, historical interpretation is nothing but arbitrary.

[SevSpitak]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Many ethnic Armenian nationalists seem to be proud of their "pure" genetic stock. As if the collective memory and culture of ancient Armenians is genetically passed down rather than socially learned.

Azerbaijan like Turkey has followed the 20th paradigm where every emerging nation-state must have historical legitimacy. I do not doubt the current Armenian nation's historical bond with ancient Armenians. It is much less contrived than Turkish identity.

However, this does make the Armenian nation-state any more legitimate than Turkey or Azerbaijan. Does Israel have territorial rights to Palestine just because of historical claims?

History is already biased enough at the academic level. With political influence, historical interpretation is nothing but arbitrary.

Armenia doesn't have rights to Iranian Azerbaijan, nor Iraq, nor Beirut, nor Judea, nor Cappadocia, nor Baku even though those were part of Armenia once during its history, and ever since there have been Armenians living there.

But in a region where the heritage, culture, history, and up until 95 years ago, the majority of its population is/was Armenian, and its people were ethnically cleansed against their own will during the modern age, through means such as genocide, then Armenian does have territorial rights. Take a look at all maps prior to 1915.* They all indicate Armenia in/around Van, Mush, Erzurum, Erivan, Karabakh, Nakhichevan, etc. The only time in the entire history of humanity the region wasn't "Armenia/Urartu" was starting from 1915, a tiny 95 years in its 4100 year old history, due to an illegal ethnic cleansing. Yes Armenia does have the right for territorial claims.

* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rws5YxPc16Y

[SevSpitak]

Re: Caucasian Albania

History is already biased enough at the academic level. With political influence, historical interpretation is nothing but arbitrary.

History is biased when there is no material to justify certain claims. Armenia has an AMPLE amount of material to justify its claims in Eastern Anatolia, and there is no bias required for this, even Turkish historians recognize the fact that they have built their republic on Greek & Armenian soil, and that up until 1915, those regions were inhabited by the indigenous people. Istanbul's majority population was Greek up until the population exchange after WWI, but this was a deal by the two governments, therefore, the government of Greece can only think of Constantinople as its past history. Eastern Anatolia was ~80% Armenian until 1915, and there was no deal with Armenians. Armenians were exiled and forced to leave behind everything they had built for 4100 years. You might find a few Seljuk/Ottoman/Turkish monuments in Eastern Anatolia, but go there for yourself, and look at its historical monuments. 99% are Armenian, and they are left to rot and perish. Except for the Akhtamar Cathedral, which was restored mostly due to European pressure, and honestly, half assed.

What you want is for us to simply forget about our entire history and move on. That's impossible. Imagine Bulgaria invades Turkey, and forcefully exiles you to the four corners of the world. Even in 100 years, will your children forget it? And your history in the region is ~800 years old. We're talking 4100.

These kind of things have happened many times in ancient history, but Turkey is among the only nation in the modern age to have done such a thing, and therefore, Armenians are among the rarest modern nations to have been through such a thing. And therefore, no one, especially biased/nationalist Turks, can truly understand what Eastern Anatolia/Western Armenia is for Armenians.

[Davo88]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Well said. Despite our "friendly" neighbours' attempts at being creative, nothing can erase the fact that our roots are in both Eastern and Western Armenia, and that theirs are in Central Asia.

SevSpitak that's a really nice video showing all those maps. Despite hundreds of years of foreign domination, those lands never really lost their true identity until the genocide happened. What is also impressive is that Armenia is never separated into Western and Eastern, or Ottoman and Persian/Russian, Armenia always stays 1.

[lampron]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Have any of the original Caucasian Albanians survived?
Probably some Caucasian Tatars (who after 1918 became the Azerbaijanis) have Caucasian Albanian ancestry

[Davo88]

Re: Caucasian Albania

Perhaps it's true that some Tartars have Caucasian Albanian ancestry, but I believe some Armenians in Artsakh and Armenia do as well. However, to me, emphasizing their Albanian ancestry is like emphasizing that some of the Crusaders have Arab, Greek, or Turkish blood. It does not change the fact that Azerbaijan is an alien entity to the region compared to Armenia or Georgia.