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Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

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  • #101
    Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

    Originally posted by firat View Post
    I am a Turkish citizen and I am not insulting you. So, be respectful to me.

    Is Haykakan selling his identity in your eyes?

    How can you suppose that he/she does not care for his/her identity as much as you do? He is an armenian living with the consequences of closed borders. However, you are an armenian who does not have any idea about the consequences of closed borders. Thus, instead of teaching him/her what to do, you might ask what these consequences are and if you prefer borders not to be opened, then you and people like you should be the ones who will make his/her life easier bcoz of the borders.

    What is the exchange rate between the two countries, which industries would gain to benefit, and who would benefit the most? I guarantee you people on both sides of the border will gain to lose while the politicians make off like bandits.
    "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

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    • #102
      Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

      Originally posted by KanadaHye View Post
      What is the exchange rate between the two countries, which industries would gain to benefit, and who would benefit the most? I guarantee you people on both sides of the border will gain to lose while the politicians make off like bandits.
      While reading, you can forget about me being a Turk.

      The thing is the border between the two countries is closed and this is not something correct. Economic tariffs or some restrictions can help Armenian Government protect Armenia from foreign money if this is the concern.

      For Turkey, foreign money wherever it comes is welcomed as long as some portion of that money can be transformed into investment. There is no reason for this country to be concerned about foreign investment unless strategic sectors like communication are not sold to foreigners which is unfortunately the case in Turkey. For sure, ROA must make its economy larger before opening its doors to foreign investment fully. On the other hand, this might be the only way to make economy larger inan enclaved area.

      In Turkey, creation of capital holders were performed with domestic resources between 1923 and early 1980's. This process was followed by opening the doors to foreign investment fully and adopting to the market economy. Closed borders of Armenia with Turkey means closed borders to Europe to a certain extent. This situation might make it difficult for investers to come to Armenia and risk their money for investing. This is why I think open borders are better for Armenia.

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      • #103
        Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

        Originally posted by firat View Post
        While reading, you can forget about me being a Turk.

        The thing is the border between the two countries is closed and this is not something correct. Economic tariffs or some restrictions can help Armenian Government protect Armenia from foreign money if this is the concern.

        For Turkey, foreign money wherever it comes is welcomed as long as some portion of that money can be transformed into investment. There is no reason for this country to be concerned about foreign investment unless strategic sectors like communication are not sold to foreigners which is unfortunately the case in Turkey. For sure, ROA must make its economy larger before opening its doors to foreign investment fully. On the other hand, this might be the only way to make economy larger inan enclaved area.

        In Turkey, creation of capital holders were performed with domestic resources between 1923 and early 1980's. This process was followed by opening the doors to foreign investment fully and adopting to the market economy. Closed borders of Armenia with Turkey means closed borders to Europe to a certain extent. This situation might make it difficult for investers to come to Armenia and risk their money for investing. This is why I think open borders are better for Armenia.
        Well, my friend who lives in Turkey, supports capitalism but wishes not to be called a Turk... here is a bit more development on which way the oil flows.

        Heritage Oil to buy Turkey's Genel Energy for $3B

        Heritage Oil Ltd. has reached a tentative agreement to acquire Turkish oil and gas company Genel Energy International Ltd. in a deal valued at about $3 billion, the Calgary-based company said Tuesday.

        Heritage, which currently has operations in Africa, Russia and the Middle East, said the all-stock, reverse takeover transaction is scheduled to close in the third quarter of 2009.

        Genel has significant oil and gas interests in northern Iraq's Kurdistan region. Heritage said the proposed deal will create a company with two core areas: Kurdistan and Uganda.

        Heritage said the expanded company will have proved and probable reserves of about 300 million barrels and the potential for millions more.

        Under the terms of the agreement, Heritage would double its current share capital by issuing 260 million new shares, receiving all of Genel's shares in return.

        The deal is subject to various conditions and requires shareholder and regulatory approval.

        Shares of Heritage Oil were up 77 cents, or more than six per cent, to $12.39 in morning trading on the Toronto stock exchange.

        http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2009/0...gas-genel.html


        So, the Turkish tax payer that supports the military war against the PKK is paying with money and their lives so the oil from northern Iraq can be exploited by a company based in Canada The US spent how many lives and how much money and the US people aren't benefiting a single cent? When Armenia opens its borders, it will only pave the way for more exploitation of the Armenian people and resources. A few will get wealthy, but the remainder of the people will be divided even more.
        Last edited by KanadaHye; 06-09-2009, 07:45 AM.
        "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

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        • #104
          Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

          Originally posted by firat View Post
          I am a Turkish citizen and I am not insulting you. So, be respectful to me.
          Who cares if you are turkish or Nigerian citizen? Why should you insult me? I didn’t insult you nether (yet) although I do not see reason why I should be respectful to you.
          Originally posted by firat View Post
          Is Haykakan selling his identity in your eyes?

          How can you suppose that he/she does not care for his/her identity as much as you do?
          Yes I think every one who supports current external policy of Armenian government is ready to sell his identity. Giving up on recognition of AG in change of a very doubtful promise (never believe Turkish diplomats) of opening a border (which must be open without any preconditions as it is a international norm) is nothing else but a betrayal.

          Originally posted by firat View Post
          He is an armenian living with the consequences of closed borders. However, you are an armenian who does not have any idea about the consequences of closed borders. Thus, instead of teaching him/her what to do, you might ask what these consequences are and if you prefer borders not to be opened, then you and people like you should be the ones who will make his/her life easier bcoz of the borders.
          That is a pure speculation… you have no idea who am I and where I am coming from, nether you know who he/she is. There is no any significant consequences that common Armenian citizens could feel because of closed borders. Turkish government exaggerates the significant of that border opening. The only ones who are interested in opening of these borders is the ruling oligarchy who can get even richer by importing Turkish xxxx…. And actually I think turks are even more interested in opening that border than common Armenian citizens….
          Last edited by Mukuch; 06-09-2009, 08:27 AM.

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          • #105
            Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

            KanadaHye it is not just the turckish business that will effect armenia but more importantly the cheap and reliable route to european markets is what armenia needs badly.Btw i don't live in armenia firat but i do care deeply about her.Mukuch no one is selling their identity and you are being ignorent and offencive.We need to help what's left of our homeland develop into a viable country where people want to live not a war torn blockaded country people run away from.With kharabagh armenia has enoughf land to build a viable state where people can make a living and thrive but we need to get our products to foreighn markets to do this.Sure the oligarks will benefit the most but by keeping them and their businesses in armenia, the regular people will also benefit.The whole world is being run by oligarks and this is nothing new.We do not need to change our beliefs but we do need to make realistic goals with the welfare of our people and our homeland in mind.Sure they took our lands but can we get them back? No now we cannot fight the turcks even not in our wetdream scenerios will we beat turckey to get what is rightfully ours. I am not implying we forget about the genocide or getting back our lands but we do need to face reality and do whats best for armenia.
            Hayastan or Bust.

            Comment

            • #106
              Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

              Originally posted by Haykakan View Post
              KanadaHye it is not just the turckish business that will effect armenia but more importantly the cheap and reliable route to european markets is what armenia needs badly.Btw i don't live in armenia firat but i do care deeply about her.Mukuch no one is selling their identity and you are being ignorent and offencive.We need to help what's left of our homeland develop into a viable country where people want to live not a war torn blockaded country people run away from.With kharabagh armenia has enoughf land to build a viable state where people can make a living and thrive but we need to get our products to foreighn markets to do this.Sure the oligarks will benefit the most but by keeping them and their businesses in armenia, the regular people will also benefit.The whole world is being run by oligarks and this is nothing new.We do not need to change our beliefs but we do need to make realistic goals with the welfare of our people and our homeland in mind.Sure they took our lands but can we get them back? No now we cannot fight the turcks even not in our wetdream scenerios will we beat turckey to get what is rightfully ours. I am not implying we forget about the genocide or getting back our lands but we do need to face reality and do whats best for armenia.
              I would rather the goods to/from Europe be transported by ship rather than land through Turkey. I can see counterfeit products being passed off in the transition. Turkey is a lot like China in that regard.
              "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

              Comment

              • #107
                Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

                Originally posted by KanadaHye View Post
                I would rather the goods to/from Europe be transported by ship rather than land through Turkey. I can see counterfeit products being passed off in the transition. Turkey is a lot like China in that regard.
                Sure but armenia has no opening to the sea we are landlocked.Georgia is our only opening and they are unreliable and sometimes hostile to us.As i said before there is a larger picture here, russia wants to isolate georgia without hurting us too much.
                Hayastan or Bust.

                Comment

                • #108
                  Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

                  Originally posted by Haykakan View Post
                  KanadaHye it is not just the turckish business that will effect armenia but more importantly the cheap and reliable route to european markets is what armenia needs badly.Btw i don't live in armenia firat but i do care deeply about her.Mukuch no one is selling their identity and you are being ignorent and offencive.We need to help what's left of our homeland develop into a viable country where people want to live not a war torn blockaded country people run away from.With kharabagh armenia has enoughf land to build a viable state where people can make a living and thrive but we need to get our products to foreighn markets to do this.Sure the oligarks will benefit the most but by keeping them and their businesses in armenia, the regular people will also benefit.The whole world is being run by oligarks and this is nothing new.We do not need to change our beliefs but we do need to make realistic goals with the welfare of our people and our homeland in mind.Sure they took our lands but can we get them back? No now we cannot fight the turcks even not in our wetdream scenerios will we beat turckey to get what is rightfully ours. I am not implying we forget about the genocide or getting back our lands but we do need to face reality and do whats best for armenia.
                  LOL look who is talking of ignorance…..
                  Common I am not having this discussion… this is not serious… the people who made a deal with turks just 2 days before Obama’s speech never should ever talk about AG recognition…
                  We have survived and progressed with closed borders and will survive and develop with them closed as long as it is necessary. But we cant give up on Hay Dat. Hay Dat: that it is what we are . And if we can not beat turkey militarily than we should try to do it diplomatically (not with this ignorant arssholles who runs the Armenian government now)

                  Comment

                  • #109
                    Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

                    Originally posted by Haykakan View Post
                    Sure but armenia has no opening to the sea we are landlocked.Georgia is our only opening and they are unreliable and sometimes hostile to us.As i said before there is a larger picture here, russia wants to isolate georgia without hurting us too much.
                    This is why it upsets me that Russia didn't just take down the entire Georgian government and replaced them with some loyal Armenians
                    "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

                    Comment

                    • #110
                      Re: Vote now: Armenia-diaspora-turkey relations

                      Originally posted by Haykakan View Post
                      Sure but armenia has no opening to the sea we are landlocked.Georgia is our only opening and they are unreliable and sometimes hostile to us.As i said before there is a larger picture here, russia wants to isolate georgia without hurting us too much.

                      LOL, yah all Russia cares is Armenia…don’t be ridiculous….. For Russia Armenia is just another province of Great Russian empire just like Georgia. And not very important one…. The difference is that Georgians try to become independent....
                      Last edited by Mukuch; 06-09-2009, 09:54 AM.

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