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Iranian-Armenian relations

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  • Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

    From wikipedia:

    Joint Austrian and German mission

    As allies during the war, the Imperial German mission in the Ottoman Empire included both military and civilian components. Germany had brokered a deal with the Sublime Porte to commission the building of a railroad stretching from Berlin to the Middle East, called the Baghdad Railway. Germany's diplomatic mission at the beginning of 1915 was led by Ambassador Baron Hans Freiherr von Wangenheim (who was later succeeded by Count Paul Wolff Metternich following his death in 1915). Like Morgenthau, von Wangenheim began to receive many disturbing messages from consul officials around the Ottoman Empire detailing the massacre of Armenians. From the province of Adana, Consul Eugene Buge reported that the CUP chief had sworn to kill and massacre any Armenians who survived the deportation marches.[121] In June 1915, von Wangenheim sent a cable to Berlin reporting that Talat had admitted that the deportations were not "being carried out because of 'military considerations alone.'" One month later, he came to the conclusion that there "no longer was doubt that the Porte was trying to exterminate the Armenian race in the Turkish Empire."[122]

    When Wolff-Metternich succeeded von Wangenheim, he continued to dispatch similar cables: "The Committee [CUP] demands the extirpation of the last remnants of the Armenians and the government must yield.... A Committee representative is assigned to each of the provincial administrations.... Turkification means license to expel, to kill or destroy everything that is not Turkish."[123]

    Another notable figure in the German military camp was Max Erwin von Scheubner-Richter, who documented various massacres of Armenians. He sent fifteen reports regarding "deportations and mass killings" to the German chancellery. His final report noted that fewer than 100,000 Armenians were left alive in the Ottoman Empire: the rest having been exterminated (German: ausgerottet).[124] Scheubner-Richter also detailed the methods of the Ottoman government, noting its use of the Special Organization and other bureaucratized instruments of genocide.

    The Germans also witnessed the way Armenians were burned according to Israeli historian, Bat Ye’or, who writes: "The Germans, allies of the Turks in the First World War...saw how civil populations were shut up in churches and burned, or gathered en masse in camps, tortured to death, and reduced to ashes."[125] German officers stationed in eastern Turkey disputed the government's assertion that Armenian revolts had broken out, suggesting that the areas were "quiet until the deportations began."[126] Other Germans openly supported the Ottoman policy against the Armenians. As Hans Humann, the German naval attaché in Constantinople said to U.S. Ambassador Henry Morgenthau:

    I have lived in Turkey the larger part of my life ... and I know the Armenians. I also know that both Armenians and Turks cannot live together in this country. One of these races has got to go. And I don't blame the Turks for what they are doing to the Armenians. I think that they are entirely justified. The weaker nation must succumb. The Armenians desire to dismember Turkey; they are against the Turks and the Germans in this war, and they therefore have no right to exist here.[127]

    In a genocide conference held in 2001, professor Wolfgang Wipperman of the Free University of Berlin introduced documents evidencing that the German High Command was aware of the mass killings at the time but chose not to interfere or speak out.[128]
    Մեկ Ազգ, Մեկ Մշակույթ
    ---
    "Western Assimilation is the greatest threat to the Armenian nation since the Armenian Genocide."

    Comment


    • Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

      and a pretty good article:

      A Reassessment of the German Role in the Armenian Genocide

      Dr Donald Bloxham

      There is an underdeveloped and polarized historiographical debate about the exact extent and nature of German involvement. Ulrich Trumpener, Frank Weber and Wolfdieter Bihl have bequeathed a fairly straightforward impression of Realpolitik, where opposition to the murders from within German officialdom was simply outweighed by the interests of the wartime alliance.[1] A case study by Hilmar Kaiser of the fate of the Armenian workers on the so-called Baghdad railway has shown that genuine disagreements over the treatment of the Armenians did occur, both within German ranks and between Germans and Turks, and that these did have ramifications, at least in the short term, for the life-chances of some of the workers.[2] More recently, Kaiser has trenchantly re-affirmed what has perhaps long been apparent from the available documentary sources, namely that there was no uniform German official position on the genocide.[3] Conversely, Vahakn Dadrian has stressed active German complicity in the massacres, and, like Christoph Dinkel and Artem Ohandjanian, has even invoked German ‘stimulation’ of killings and expulsions, with particular reference to the role of German military representatives in Turkey.[4] Wolfgang Gust has concurred with these overridingly negative assessments.[5] The final four scholars suggest that instances of German military and civilian officials objecting to the massacres were insignificant in the face of the general thrust of German policy which, they imply, somehow stood to gain from the murder of the Armenians.
      Based upon German and Austrian documentation, this paper seeks to help redress the historiographical balance by adding force to the argument of general German opposition to the genocide at the foreign policy level, while showing the restrictions on ameliorative action imposed under the tight restraints of the Turkish-German alliance. It also reassesses the evidence recently adduced to show that no general indictment may be made of the German military representation in Turkey, suggesting instead that any involvement in the genocide can be traced to only a few individuals rather than any from of group complicity. The analysis is not an apology for German behaviour, but it does show that the more serious accusations that have been laid are often simply unfounded. More generally and importantly, it problematises the simplistic contexts in which assessments of the German role have hitherto been made. It draws attention to the complexities in the development and nature of German understandings of the escalating persecution and murder process, and sets the variety of German responses against the backgrounds of ethnic conflict in and around the Ottoman empire, and of the general war situation.

      With hindsight, the executions, incarcerations and deportations of February, March and April 1915 appear to be the beginnings of the larger process. (Though it seems to this author that we need to assess the development of Turkish policy less in terms of specific established policies prior to spring 1915, and more in terms of broad phases of policy radicalisation, stimulated internally and externally, which did not fully crystallise into intentions for total, empire-wide murder until the early summer of 1915.[6]) In reaction Hans von Wangenheim in the German Constantinople Embassy did just what the British Foreign Office did:[7] he waited until there was no doubt at all as to what was happening, anticipating a certain level of brutality by the CUP-led regime but not the true extent of what was to come. For Wangenheim, ignorant of cause and effect concerning Armenian reactions to Turkish policy at the time, and observing events as they unfolded, Turkish actions in the spring months could be explained, even justified, as a violent ‘pacification’ policy, with reference to what he saw as instances of Armenian treachery in the earlier Turkish Caucasus offensive and particularly in Van. Indeed, it is probably the case, as the Austro-Hungarian ambassador Pallavicini intimated, that the April 24-6 arrests for instance did spring from a (highly paranoid and chauvinist) form of Turkish security policy in the light of the Anglo-French landings on the Dardanelles and against the backdrop of the Van uprising.[8] With the expansion of the deportations from mid-June, and the proliferation of reports of massacres and deprivations, the German interpretation of and reaction to Turkish policy changed qualitatively. Nevertheless, at no point was it suddenly apparent that ‘genocide’ was taking place - even had that frame of reference actually existed at the time - so it was never a straightforward question of Germany having to choose between fulfilment of its war aims and partnership with a regime that had just passed beyond the moral pale. The horror developed incrementally in the eyes of the German authorities, and small mitigations, even if illusory, were always to be found by those seeking them, in Turkish deceptions and false assurances. Not the weakest palliative was the ongoing belief that the Armenians and their ‘external allies’ had helped induce their own fate. In these important senses, most of the literature on ‘Germany and the Armenian genocide’, like the first wave of literature on Allied reactions to the Nazi Holocaust, is anachronistic, with justifiable outrage at the crime in its totality obscuring comprehension of the contemporaneous unfolding of events.
      Anti-Armenian language is frequently cited as evidence of the antipathy of German diplomats and particularly soldiers. While there are clear cases of anti-Armenian sentiment, sometimes vehement, on behalf of military and civil officials ‘on the ground’ in the Ottoman territories, this by no means indicates unanimity about the most extreme policy imaginable: genocide. Such attitudes certainly served to rationalize a policy of non-intervention, and indicate feelings of cultural superiority that placed a lower value on human life in the near east, but that is again qualitatively a different level of responsibility to outright ‘complicity’ or ‘stimulation’. Besides, ‘European’ arrogance and superiority complexes were just as easily directed at Kurds and Turks as at Armenians, by both Germans and others, but there is no suggestion that this stereotyping provided a German impetus to murdering either of those groups.
      Conversely, we must also accept that many representatives of the central powers believed that the Armenians were a subversive ethnic element, extrapolating this collective libel from limited instances of Armenian revolutionary activity before and during the war. This was partially based on the restricted knowledge among German officers of the real conditions in Turkish Armenia, and partially on Turkish propaganda. One useful way of contextualising German military attitudes is to examine the (largely unsuccessful) German policies of sponsoring nationalist uprisings within the Entente empires, be it of different Muslim populations against British rule, or of the non-(Great) Russian peoples against Russian rule. It helps to explain many of the indifferent reactions to the treatment of the Armenians if we think of the central powers as having accepted the idea of a series of nationalist conflicts not always fought by regular armies. The Armenians, like Serbs in the Austro-Hungarian worldview, were credited with the sort of collective partisan activity that German personnel were trying to inculcate in others. According to that logic, ‘military necessity’ could stretch to measures against swathes of the Armenian civilian population, up to and including - in a few proven cases - approving the Turkish deportation of whole communities.
      To the extent that a small number of German officers who served in the Caucasian/Anatolian campaigns were implicated in approving Armenian deportations, a definition of ‘military necessity’ should be taken at face value as their motivation, rather than co-operation in a scheme of genocide per se, from which those officers tried to distance themselves literally, if not in moral terms successfully. The paranoia of the notion was certainly intensified by the propagandising of the Turks, and it may well be that in circular fashion, an ‘insurrection hysteria’[9] fed back into and further intensified Turkish hysteria at a fateful time for the Armenians. Whatever the precise impetus moving a few officer to direct or indirect acquiescence in the deportations, it remains clear that distinctions must be drawn between the course of developments in the genocide itself and German - and Entente and neutral - perceptions of these events, between the implementation of a policy of destruction by the Turkish government and the actions of a third party.
      One inference to be drawn from the most negative assessments of the German role is a perpetuation of the wartime notions of the Entente and of the US Ambassador to Turkey Henry Morgenthau, namely that German imperialism could easily accommodate genocide as part of a grander geo-political strategy of gaining controlling influence in the former Ottoman empire and removing potential competition (hence the perpetuation of unfounded allegations against the geopolitical theorists Paul Rohrbach and Max von Oppenheim). However this is to misrepresent German imperialism of the time. It may even be to view it from a post-Nazi perspective of utter contempt for non-German life. European imperialism rested primarily on the dictates of power by economic expansion and prestige. For Germany, the former interest was not served by the huge disruption of the Turkish infrastructure that the permanent removal of the Armenians signified. Establishing pre-eminent influence in Turkey was an important aim - though the Young Turks had entirely contrary ideas - but not the inheritance of a crippled economy. The latter interest was damaged by Germany’s purported role in the genocide of a Christian people, as protests to the Turks and a multitude of diplomatic memoranda and official and unofficial objections within Germany observed. (The wholesale murder of black non-Christians in south-west Africa by the German military in the previous decade was another matter.) The issue of preserving prestige was compounded by the need to assuage neutral, particularly American, opinion, so the resultant German propaganda campaign is not indicative of guilt; rather, the German Foreign Office and the censor were playing the same game that the Entente were playing. The rhetoric of Armenian treachery spouted by the German propagandists, however, fed directly into every pre-existing stereotype of the Armenians and helped to pave the way for post-war denial, and perhaps also for the pig-headed refusal of some of the aforementioned German officers to accept that orchestrated massacres of Armenians had occurred.

      Germany is not to be absolved of responsibility. On one hand, Liman von Sanders showed with his intervention in the deportation measures in Smyrna that forceful intercession was possible, and theoretically, therefore, that more intercession was possible. Further, from early days Germany had been happy to fuel the explosive ethnic situation on its own account with its involvement in stimulating nationalist movements in Entente territories and its support of the Jihad. Given the recent history of the region, it was always likely that such policies would open-up the near-eastern conflict to civilian populations. As such those policies are illustrative of a more general absence of humanitarian consideration which, if balking at genocide, probably anticipated collective reprisals against the civilian populations, particularly the Christian minorities of the Ottoman empire and particularly the Armenians.
      Charges of moral cowardice, callousness, chauvinism, bureaucratic and military tunnel vision, and above all, blind pursuit of national interest, may justifiably be levelled at many of the Germans with an involvement in Turkish relations. The peculiarity of the accusations of German influence on the genocidal scheme is, however, twofold. First, they show no sign of being able to break down the rather rudimentary wartime propaganda of the Entente nations and of Turkey itself, with all its stereotyping of Prussian militarism and misperceptions of the level of German control of Turkish policy. Secondly, they contradict the research which many of the same accusers have conducted upon the genesis of the genocide in Turkish-Armenian relations. It is rather strange to chart the rise of the radical element of the CUP - with all of its clandestine scheming and ruthlessness and plans for ethnic-national homogenisation - against the long background of discrimination and periodic murder of the Armenians under various regimes, and then suddenly to introduce an alien element into the picture to explain the creation of a policy which had supposedly already been arrived at. Such arguments are not only inconsistent, they detract from the direct responsibility of the Ittihadists as progenitors of the genocide. Germany would have to wait for Hitler in order to develop the blueprint.
      Մեկ Ազգ, Մեկ Մշակույթ
      ---
      "Western Assimilation is the greatest threat to the Armenian nation since the Armenian Genocide."

      Comment


      • Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

        Worthy News?

        Iran Secretly Executes J3wish-Armenian Couple; Christians Concerned

        http://www.worthynews.com/10140-iran...ians-concerned

        TEHRAN, IRAN (Worthy News)-- Iran has secretly executed a J3wish-Armenian couple and three other persons, raising concerns about other religious minority prisoners in the strict Islamic nation, Iranian Christians and rights activists confirmed Sunday, March 27.

        The independent Iranian Christian news agency Mohabat News said Adiva Mirza Soleiman Kalimi, a J3wish Iranian, and her husband Varoujan Petrosian, an Armenian Iranian Christian, were executed in Tehran's notorious Evin Prison. One other woman and two men, whose identities were not revealed, were also killed, the agency reported.

        The Human Rights Activists News Agency, founded by Iranian activists, said the execution was confirmed by a branch of Iran's Revolutionary Court based inside the Evin prison.

        It was not known on what charges the inmates had been sentenced to death. Iranian officials did not provide further details.
        "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

        Comment


        • Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

          Originally posted by KanadaHye View Post
          "Their cruelty is a little different from that of the Turk, but the difference is only one of kind. The Turk, for example, often respects certain things which we have learned to associate with our religious or racial belief; the German has no respect for anything, nothing is too sacred from his profane hands. The Turk frequently used to show some respect and deference to the upper-class Armenians, the educated people, regarding them as perhaps capable of being useful even in a Turkish dominion. The German, as soon as he arrived here, pointed out the educated Armenian as the most dangerous of all, and instigated the Turks into organizing a ruthless persecution of the intellectual classes of Armenians.
          Don't believe everything you read.

          This is anti-German garbage and akin to inffering that Armenians where somehow responsible for Stalin's purges. Just because the Germans where allied with the Turks, doesn't mean that they necessarily harbored ill will towards Armenians.

          Comment


          • Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

            Originally posted by Mos View Post
            What does that really mean? So it's fine the condemn the countries that don't recognise the Genocide, but not for Iran? You can't make such exceptions. Sure they are our friends, but they should still be pressured to recognise the Genocide like any other country, and we should not show double standards in doing so. One of the biggest thing Iran can do in its fight against "turkification" and pan-Turanism is recognising this horrific crime that was done, based off of pan-Turanism ideals. It should be a no-brainer.
            The Iranians can't afford to fall out politically with Turkey like that. As the Iranians are isolated and they are sheltering within Russia's orb for a reason.

            Iran isn't much of a counter in military terms to the Turks, Kurds and their dim-witted Azeri lackey's. Nor are Iran's intentions towards Armenia necessarily honourable.

            Comment


            • Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

              Originally posted by retro View Post
              Don't believe everything you read.

              This is anti-German garbage and akin to inffering that Armenians where somehow responsible for Stalin's purges. Just because the Germans where allied with the Turks, doesn't mean that they necessarily harbored ill will towards Armenians.
              The German military personnel had the same goals as the Turks as it was German imperialists which had interests in the Ottoman Empire. That doesn't mean that Germans necessarily harbored ill will towards Armenians. Many Turks didn't harbor ill will towards Armenians either.
              "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

              Comment


              • Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

                Originally posted by KanadaHye View Post
                It was not known on what charges the inmates had been sentenced to death. Iranian officials did not provide further details.
                Maybe he kissed her!

                Comment


                • Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

                  Originally posted by retro View Post
                  Maybe he kissed her!
                  Yeah... the Iranian officials and this particular independent reporter revealed that they executed an Armenian Iranian Christian and his J3wish wife but the charge wasn't important to report. Don't believe everything you read. Christians are worried... but J3ws, not so much
                  "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

                  Comment


                  • Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

                    Originally posted by retro View Post
                    Maybe he kissed her!

                    Iran can manage to live with Turks on its Northern border - Armenia can't. Remember that free speech and the "friendship" between Iranians and Armenians is reciprocal. I've come to a conclusion that it's not up to me to change attitudes like yours, it's up to your countrymen, moderators of this forum (who like any private business can moderate views like yours, but don't) and the Armenian educational system. It's only up to me to monitor forums like this to see the prevalence of views like yours and warn Iranians. Your sense of humor will be funny when Iranians make a wholesale shift towards the Turks, and start answering content like yours, with content of the type you see below. (Make sure you read the last three paragraphs of post # 797.) Keep it up genius, and see where it takes you ....







                    Comment


                    • Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

                      Originally posted by KanadaHye View Post
                      Yeah... the Iranian officials and this particular independent reporter revealed that they executed an Armenian Iranian Christian and his J3wish wife but the charge wasn't important to report.
                      No doubt they committed some horrendous crime against the Islamist republic of Iran. Such as running a red light!

                      Originally posted by KanadaHye View Post
                      Don't believe everything you read. Christians are worried... but J3ws, not so much
                      But how are the J3ws to breed without the help of better endowed Christian men.

                      Comment

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