Iranian-Armenian relations

[Joseph]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

In my opinion, admitting something was wrong and taking proactive steps to compensate for the injustice are two different things - I've never heard the U.S. say "let's return all of the lands of the Native Americans" or "let's pay reparations to the millions of African Americans that suffered under slavery and continuing segregation." Modern-day economic slavery in many other nations is also driven by U.S. corporations who have no problem paying pennies to foreign workers to make goods exported to the U.S. (the U.S. in fact props up many regimes to enforce such conditions). There's also very little serious interest by average Americans in remedying these sorts of problems. Do Americans sometimes acknowledge these acts? Yes, but so what. Even Bin Laden acknowledges each head he cuts off.

Imagine Turkey taking over all of Armenia - installing a pro-Turkish dictator that exploited Armenians - and then saying "yes we do that and we're really sorry" without stopping those kinds of policies or paying compensation to Armenians - Would you be satisfied by Turkey's Human Rights record then?

In my opinion, the U.S. simply has effective public relations to cover-up its imperialistic tendencies. Per each year of its existence, the U.S. may have the worst human rights record in history. (equation: # of years in existence /divided by/ # of human rights violations).

I don't entirely disagree with your opinion but the US is not the only culprit with regards to everything you have mentioned, both historically and presently- (in fact, we are still in the continuum of the mercantile capitalist system that began in earnest in Holland and was exported to most of Europe and then North America- control by corporations etc) One recent example- China's overseas activities in the energy and mining sectors (and essentially buying off various regimes all over Africa). Realpolitik is as ugly as its ever been. Indeed, acknowledging these acts is not enough, but in the US, when knowledge about injustices become widespread and accepted by the public, it creates adjustments and we generally do something about it (changing US attitudes with regards to minorities, human rights, etc). Attitudes with regards to our foreign policy for example are changing for the better but it is too slow, no doubt. It could still be another generation or more.

The system we have in place is very flawed but then again many of the alternatives are far worse. I do not think totalitarianism, communism, religious theocracy, etc are viable alternatives for anyone beyond achieving temporary stability. Yes, the US makes huge mistakes but we have the pliability to correct some of them.

I do not support the official US views, treatment, activities with regards to Armenia (nor Iran for that matter), but at the same time, I have power to have my voice heard and help others raise their voices. We lobby against powerful forces and sometimes we win. There's not many other places where this can happen.

For instance in Iran, Armenians are treated well and generally allowed to demonstrate on April 24th; but what would happen if suddenly the regime cracks down and disallows this because Iranian-Turkish relations are elevated?

[Mos]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

A post I made regarding America a few weeks ago:

First off, that is very different from president killing his own people. Second off, the US is not alone in some of the mistakes and crimes it has done. Every nation in its height of power has committed crimes against humanity. Look at the Britain during it's height of power, the crimes they committed in their colonisation dwarfs the crimes USA has committed today. Look at Napoleon's Empire or the Mongols or the Soviets in Afghanistan, and the list goes on. I understand you are on a anti-USA agenda, but just remember to keep everything in context and remember what other powers have done during their height of power. It's not like the "evil American imperialists" are the first country to ever invade another country unjustified or to meddle in other countries affairs when they don't have to. In fact, any country in America's position of power would do that, no doubt, and history proves that. It doesn't make their acts justified, but just puts everything in context.

Neither was the British Empire a "nation" or some of the other powers mentioned, but that's besides the point I wasn't talking about Libya in my post but about the false notion that America is the only power to have exploited its position of power and in fact this exploitation has been milder than what other powers have done when they were in a similar position of power. US has done some wrong things, that's a given, but it's important for people to see all this in historical context and realise any country in such a position of power will naturally do some nasty things. As I've said power naturally corrupts governments and countries.

[Armanen]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

This is nothing about being evil and the US helped create a new Japan which thrived under a western style system after the failure of the imperial/totalitarian and caste system. Also, do not gloss over the what the Japanese did in Asia throughout the 1930's and 1940's, they killed millions of innocents for two decades before prior to surrender in 1945. The Japanese were isolationist prior to the 1870's when they got it in their mind that they would be the master-race in Asia. As for Japanese technology and innovation, that is a whole different topic but generally came about because they realized they had to acquire western standards, etc.

They had already abandoned their isolationist policy when Commodore Perry sailed in Edo bay, in 1854, with American gunships and they got the hint to open up thier borders. Their master race idea started a few decades after and one can liken it to the European mantra of 'white man's burden', where the Japanese thought they were not the superior Mongoloid race and thus they should rule over the other Asiatic peoples.

As for rapproachment with Iran during the Clinton era, I'd say the US had as much blame for its failure as the Iranians did.

[Joseph]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

They had already abandoned their isolationist policy when Commodore Perry sailed in Edo bay, in 1854, with American gunships and they got the hint to open up thier borders. Their master race idea started a few decades after and one can liken it to the European mantra of 'white man's burden', where the Japanese thought they were not the superior Mongoloid race and thus they should rule over the other Asiatic peoples.

As for rapproachment with Iran during the Clinton era, I'd say the US had as much blame for its failure as the Iranians did.

Somewhat. US involvement in Asia (though Japan and US did tenuously begin trade) was minor compared to the British, French, Portuguese until the Spanish American war and then the US became quite isolationist after WWI until 1941 when then entered WWII.

I agree with your second point. The neo-cons muscled their way in and helped screw it up simultaneously with the crackdown on moderated in Iran

[Armanen]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Somewhat. US involvement in Asia (though Japan and US did tenuously begin trade) was minor compared to the British, French, Portuguese until the Spanish American war and then the US became quite isolationist after WWI until 1941 when then entered WWII.

I agree with your second point. The neo-cons muscled their way in and helped screw it up simultaneously with the crackdown on moderated in Iran

I had meant that when Commodore Perry came in 1854 is when the Japanese realized they had to open up to the outside world. Of course the US was behind in the imperialism game, but by the early 1900s they had gained colonies in the Pacific, Asia, and the Caribbean. Also, the Open-Door policy in China was a result of the US foreign policy in that region and country specifically. Yet, in comparison to today, the US was isolationist and in my opinion had a better foreign policy. How much of this is due to the values of the people in power and average citizens at the time, the geopolitical make-up of the world prior to the end of WWI, and technology is open to debate. Though I think they all played a significant role and none to the exclusion of any of the others.

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

For instance in Iran, Armenians are treated well and generally allowed to demonstrate on April 24th; but what would happen if suddenly the regime cracks down and disallows this because Iranian-Turkish relations are elevated?

I agree with the bulk of what you wrote in your comment above.

It's important for Iran/Armenia to maintain strong ties as a hedge against this type of activity (shifting towards Turkey). However, all past Iranian governments have been anti Pan-Turkism (it's just part of Iranian DNA). I'm not sure that Iran is more prone to shifting gears in support of Turks than, let's say, the U.S. The other thing worth mentioning is that when the U.S. criticizes Iran for *cracking down on free speech* it's also basically saying as a component of that rhetoric that Aliyev and the Grey Wolves should be permitted to put ads in newspapers encouraging Pan-Turkism, separatism, and other strife so the U.S. can exploit it. That's the kind of activity they're looking to foster. Iran will never let PJAK or the Grey Wolves hold *free speech* rallies: Does the U.S. allow Al Qaeda to give speeches in Times Square?

The U.S. has very little interest in Free Speech for the sake of the speech - it's more for gaining an advantage in softening up potential targets so they can steal more resources. For example, if the U.S. was interested in *womens' rights,* it would start with criticizing its ally Saudi Arabia (women can't drive, vote, or show their faces). If the U.S. was interested in *democracy* it wouldn't let a tiny minority of Saudis rule over the majority of the people of Bahrain by brutal force (the US navy keeps ships there). If the US was interested in *nuclear disarmament,* it would start with Israel. If the US was *against torture,* it wouldn't have been engaging in it in Guantanamo or through proxies like Hosni Mubarak (the CIA would simply send detainees there to be tortured so US hands were clean). If the U.S. was really *against genocide* - it would have taken proactive steps in relation to the Turkish genocide of Armenians.

And in so far as the argument: *Yeah America has done some bad things ... but still it's pretty good.* That all depends on whether your house is under one of America's bombs (like the ones dropped by Israel in Gaza). I'm sure the Gazans don't care whether teenagers can listen to pop music in Chicago; I'm sure they would give up that luxury just so they could have their lands back.

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

what would happen if suddenly the regime cracks down and disallows this because Iranian-Turkish relations are elevated?

I've been saying for some time now that (1) more Armenians need to get involved in political advocacy [and join this site!]; (2) the minority of anti-Iranian posts on this forum are not helpful to the Armenian cause in that some Iranians are sure to be alienated; (3) that Armenians need to better educate their peers and countrymen about the importance and history of strong ties with Iran; and (4) the Azerbaijani government is now constantly beaming propaganda into Iran to play to the Iranian audience - it needs to be countered:

Armenia Needs Sites like this:
http://garabagh.org/main/

Armenians should reach out to and make friends with Iranians, and share with those who don't know, the evils of Pan-Turkism because it's a common problem. Armenians should make pro-Iranian sites and return the favor, and educate Iranians about the dangers of Pan-Turkism. (Assume some Iranians have never heard of the Grey Wolves and their intentions - tell them about it.)

The good news is I made a database on Pan-Turkism that Armenians can share with Iranians - Pan-Turkism is a political ideology and a common enemy.
http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread....ht=#post311511

[One of the best things anyone can do to help Armenia is to add to the above link; translate it into Persian; and share it with Iranians; When Iranian tourists come to Armenian, print some of that stuff up and let them read it.]

The bad news is that when Iranians come to a site like this they will also see a lot of hateful rhetoric directed against them. (Though 75% or more of the posts are favorable to the Iran/Armenia friendship, the government of Azerbaijan would love to exploit some of the posts on here, which means it cuts against Armenia's interests when Iranians run a Google search and stumble upon some of the less helpful comments. There's a similar problem on youtube. [fn 1.] For example, though this thread started with good intentions; there is also a lot of unhelpful stuff on it that will alienate Iranians, particularly those in government positions. I've been sounding that alarm for a while.)

Aliyev has started beaming in propaganda into Iran claiming that *Armenians hate Iranians and Muslims,* and they have *genocided* Muslims. (I hope everyone got my personal messages on how to counteract that.) I am also aware that Aliyev and Turkey tried to incite a riot against Armenians in Northern Iran through these tactics; Thank God it didn't work. Nevertheless, Armenians need to get involved in countering this behavior.

NOTES
[fn 1] Examples of messages from Armenians on Youtube that are not helpful. (There are also plenty of Israelis on several sites impersonating Armenians, Iranians and others.)

i do not support USA , not also RUSSIA ,

if IRAN can be strong ,without religion ,it will be more powerful then all .but since you bring religion to politic no 1 will support you !
i want IRAN free of religion, your country is not free
you must be secular regime ,not ISLAMIC
minorities can not reach higher position in your country, they are not allowed ,
minorities can not be fighter polios ,can not be bank manager ,can not be a minister ,so much religion ,for what ????????/ what is religion giving you ?
and if 1 Armenian reach higher position or any 1 MAYBE xxx ,OR ZARTOSHT ,OR any non SHIA man ,you will immediately force him or her to become Muslim ,I HAVE SEEN SO MANY STORIES ))))))))))))))
ZARTOSHT or any pagan people Ancient people are not respected in your country !
HOW YOU WANT TO LEAD A NATION ? when there is not freedom inside your country ?????????

WHO IS xxxxING ASSerGAYjan to say to IRAN WHAT TO DO ???????HA
xxxxing nation of mixer they do not know IF THEY are (Caucasian Albanian) or (azeri of IRAN)I mean atrupatakan ,they are confused ...

listen we still have lands to be liberated ......we still have another 22% lands NAKHICHEVAN AND GORDMAN states of Armenia ....

this xxxxing ASSerGAYjan will go down ...they do not still know that we are ARMENIANS
they do not know that we can fight without food or water for weeks ,just like we did in the last war.
they do not know that we always keep last bullet for our self ,so we would not be captured by xxxxing genocidal azeri tork .
they do not know that we fought for our lands form thousand of years with small army and xxxx everybody .....and still we are small in number and very good in war and pease ,its in our GEN DNA .
they do not know that half of today ASSerGAYjan is ARMENIAN LAND

we showed this pig azeri torks in the last war of 1988-1994 that my gorilla fighters can xxxx mercenaries (like RUSSIANS,UKRANIANS, afghan mujahidin ,Chechen fighters also Commander BASAEV ,Qaida figters,150 retired turkish generals from turkey ,fighters from azeri of Iran ,Arab muslim fighters i mean xxxxers ,Uzbek fighters ....they all died like dogs in the hand of my HOLY SOLDIERS .....

[Eddo211]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

The US is still a very young nation comparatively speaking and we have a lot to learn. The US record is quite shameful (we have some very good chapters too) but isn't generally glossed over, is openly discussed, admitted to, etc. Indeed we had slavery (a system which was inherited from both our Dutch and English predecessors in the mercantilist system- as there was and still is slavery or perpetual slavery in many parts of the world) but we also fought a civil war to eradicate it.

The native populations was largely decimated in a gradual genocide over two centuries but you won't find but a handful of Americans who do not admit this and agree it was genocidal and wrong. This will forever be a blight on US history but we also know this as a people. The US has done some good things and has done some bad things (bad things especially under or more rightwing administrations- still there was the Cold War and I would say there was a fair share of lunacy to go around). Compared to other great powers in the modern world over the last few centuries (Spanish, Portuguese, British, Turkish, Soviet, Japanese,etc), I would say though our record has been better (nor are we a traditional empire per se). Problem is, being a world power, empire, etc is never really a good thing and never ends well- never has, never will. If we grow more isolationist, people complain- if we get involved people complain and we are held to a far different standard. It is a no-win situation. Like any nation, our wisest and most reasonable don't always control the reigns of power. The US is also a country where you can say, write, think, just about anything you want a you will not be persecuted. We are far from perfect but no nation/political entity/regime even religious group ever will be.

Well I can tell you guys that most real Americans know who the Armenians are and they are aware to a normal degree about the world affairs (Kanada, you be surprised on how they share some of your views about their government).

I speak from past experience and presently I am posting from the down South cattle country Oklahoma where I happen to be on a job assignment. Man I tell you these people are nice, they would give you the shirt off their backs, they value their freedom and have the means to protect it (I was at a gun show few days ago and I can buy a Marine high caliber (50) sniper rifle or a special forces tactical assault rife, AK-47, bullet proof vests and get a permit to carry them concealed if I lived here no problem (Powder explosives anyone? how about a Winchester 30/30 for $350, SOLD!, I just got to get it home somehow)…..they are very conservative, believe everybody has the right to freedom of any religion, and they grow the narliest and tastiest beef ever.

You can tell these are the descendents of people who fought for the independence of America. I like these folks.


Get R dun

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Article recommended: http://www.payvand.com/news/08/jul/1150.html

[KanadaHye]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Well I can tell you guys that most real Americans know who the Armenians are and they are aware to a normal degree about the world affairs (Kanada, you be surprised on how they share some of your views about their government).

I speak from past experience and presently I am posting from the down South cattle country Oklahoma where I happen to be on a job assignment. Man I tell you these people are nice, they would give you the shirt off their backs, they value their freedom and have the means to protect it (I was at a gun show few days ago and I can buy a Marine high caliber (50) sniper rifle or a special forces tactical assault rife, AK-47, bullet proof vests and get a permit to carry them concealed if I lived here no problem (Powder explosives anyone? how about a Winchester 30/30 for $350, SOLD!, I just got to get it home somehow)…..they are very conservative, believe everybody has the right to freedom of any religion, and they grow the narliest and tastiest beef ever.

You can tell these are the descendents of people who fought for the independence of America. I like these folks.


Get R dun

I don't know man. I've been to about 10 states and I'm pretty sure the majority of the people I've met wouldn't be able to make sense of most of the stuff we talk about on these forums. The problem is the majority of Americans don't get out much, hell they don't even have passports.