Iranian-Armenian relations

[Joseph]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

You give westerners too much credit, most are rather uneducated when it comes to middle eastern history.

Depends where you live in the US. In the Midwest and South, people don't give sh*t. The US is country of 300+ million and yes, half are ignorant and uneducated. Some of it has to do with our geographic location being so remote from world events in Europe, Asia, Africa. In the Midwest and South most people would probably rather the US become isolationist. At the same time, most nations have an equally ignorant populous with regards to history, geo-politics, etc and of course this is due to lack of education, resources and often they are kept willfully ignorant by their own governments. Additionally, aren't all peoples somewhat self-centered, meaning they focus primarily on their own interests and history. The US and Europe is far from perfect but is there anyone who has done better so far with regards to economic opportunity, education, human rights?

[arakeretzig]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

The US and Europe is far from perfect but is there anyone who has done better so far with regards to economic opportunity, education, human rights?

Japan comes to mind.

[Joseph]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Japan comes to mind.

Japan might be one example but it is because of system put into place by the US after WWII. Australia is another example that I forgot to mention.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Japan might be one example but it is because of system put into place by the US after WWII. Australia is another example that I forgot to mention.

Are you sure about that? Were the Japanese really "evil" and needed to be "destroyed". Perhaps they were dominating with intelligence and technology that the west could only complete against with arms.

[Joseph]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Are you sure about that? Were the Japanese really "evil" and needed to be "destroyed". Perhaps they were dominating with intelligence and technology that the west could only complete against with arms.

This is nothing about being evil and the US helped create a new Japan which thrived under a western style system after the failure of the imperial/totalitarian and caste system. Also, do not gloss over the what the Japanese did in Asia throughout the 1930's and 1940's, they killed millions of innocents for two decades before prior to surrender in 1945. The Japanese were isolationist prior to the 1870's when they got it in their mind that they would be the master-race in Asia. As for Japanese technology and innovation, that is a whole different topic but generally came about because they realized they had to acquire western standards, etc.

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

The US and Europe is far from perfect but is there anyone who has done better so far with regards to economic opportunity, education, human rights?

The U.S. has not done well on the human rights issue: the US is about 200 years old - the first half of its existence was slavery / decimation of Native American people. The second half has been de facto segregation. If you consider the wars the US has started around the world - and the number of people killed; it would be very easy to rank the US as having among the worst human rights records, especially for a newly created country.

[Joseph]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

The U.S. has not done well on the human rights issue: the US is about 200 years old - the first half of its existence was slavery / decimation of Native American people. The second half has been de facto segregation. If you consider the wars the US has started around the world - and the number of people killed; it would be very easy to rank the US as having among the worst human rights records, especially for a newly created country.

The US is still a very young nation comparatively speaking and we have a lot to learn. The US record is quite shameful (we have some very good chapters too) but isn't generally glossed over, is openly discussed, admitted to, etc. Indeed we had slavery (a system which was inherited from both our Dutch and English predecessors in the mercantilist system- as there was and still is slavery or perpetual slavery in many parts of the world) but we also fought a civil war to eradicate it.

The native populations was largely decimated in a gradual genocide over two centuries but you won't find but a handful of Americans who do not admit this and agree it was genocidal and wrong. This will forever be a blight on US history but we also know this as a people. The US has done some good things and has done some bad things (bad things especially under or more rightwing administrations- still there was the Cold War and I would say there was a fair share of lunacy to go around). Compared to other great powers in the modern world over the last few centuries (Spanish, Portuguese, British, Turkish, Soviet, Japanese,etc), I would say though our record has been better (nor are we a traditional empire per se). Problem is, being a world power, empire, etc is never really a good thing and never ends well- never has, never will. If we grow more isolationist, people complain- if we get involved people complain and we are held to a far different standard. It is a no-win situation. Like any nation, our wisest and most reasonable don't always control the reigns of power. The US is also a country where you can say, write, think, just about anything you want a you will not be persecuted. We are far from perfect but no nation/political entity/regime even religious group ever will be.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

This is nothing about being evil and the US helped create a new Japan which thrived under a western style system after the failure of the imperial/totalitarian and caste system. Also, do not gloss over the what the Japanese did in Asia throughout the 1930's and 1940's, they killed millions of innocents for two decades before prior to surrender in 1945. The Japanese were isolationist prior to the 1870's when they got it in their mind that they would be the master-race in Asia. As for Japanese technology and innovation, that is a whole different topic but generally came about because they realized they had to acquire western standards, etc.

So you don't think Japan should have the same imperial rights as Great Britain, Germany, or the United States? They are surely smart enough to rule. Japan's imperialistic ambitions were due to western influences. The people of Japan were culturally astute prior to westernization/modernization.

I personally don't like the "culture" that is being exported to Armenia or even Iran for that matter. It's simple imperialism through degradation of culture which makes the younger generation increasingly vulnerable to exploitation.

[Joseph]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

So you don't think Japan should have the same imperial rights as Great Britain, Germany, or the United States? They are surely smart enough to rule. Japan's imperialistic ambitions were due to western influences. The people of Japan were culturally astute prior to westernization/modernization.

I personally don't like the "culture" that is being exported to Armenia or even Iran for that matter. It's simple imperialism through degradation of culture which makes the younger generation increasingly vulnerable to exploitation.

No. And I personally don't feel its a right for any nation to engage in imperialism. The Japanese were/are culturally astute. They are smart enough and capable to rule themselves and thrive of course but their short-lived empire they created in Asia (their ideology at the time not too different that the Nazi party in Germany but with regards to Asia) resulted in the death of millions of Koreans, Han Chinese, Vietnamese- the atrocities are shocking but often overlooked- and the Japanese would like to keep it that way. Their imperial ambition was not a western creation but a Japanese one. Their rapid development in the early twentieth century was the result of their utilization of western military technology, the Russo-Japanese being a prime example.

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Indeed we had slavery ... as there was and still is slavery or perpetual slavery in many parts of the world) but we also fought a civil war to eradicate it. The native populations was largely decimated in a gradual genocide over two centuries but you won't find but a handful of Americans who do not admit this and agree it was genocidal and wrong.

In my opinion, admitting something was wrong and taking proactive steps to compensate for the injustice are two different things - I've never heard the U.S. say "let's return all of the lands of the Native Americans" or "let's pay reparations to the millions of African Americans that suffered under slavery and continuing segregation." Modern-day economic slavery in many other nations is also driven by U.S. corporations who have no problem paying pennies to foreign workers to make goods exported to the U.S. (the U.S. in fact props up many regimes to enforce such conditions). There's also very little serious interest by average Americans in remedying these sorts of problems. Do Americans sometimes acknowledge these acts? Yes, but so what. Even Bin Laden acknowledges each head he cuts off.

Imagine Turkey taking over all of Armenia - installing a pro-Turkish dictator that exploited Armenians - and then saying "yes we do that and we're really sorry" without stopping those kinds of policies or paying compensation to Armenians - Would you be satisfied by Turkey's Human Rights record then?

In my opinion, the U.S. simply has effective public relations to cover-up its imperialistic tendencies. Per each year of its existence, the U.S. may have the worst human rights record in history. (equation: # of years in existence /divided by/ # of human rights violations).