Iranian-Armenian relations

[Mos]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

So why is it acceptable for Israel to deny Armenians their rights to world wide Genocide recogntion that might possibly lead to Armenians reclaiming ancestral land that was lost only a century ago? Iran is standing up for Armenians, why aren't you?

First off it won't lead to our reclaiming ancestral land, second they don't recognise Genocide because of their strategic relations with Turkey and the important of Turkey to their national interests. Iran doesn't recognise Armenian Genocide either. Why is that?

Iran is standing up for its national interests, as every other country is, stop with that BS. Right now, it's in their national interests to be good with us.

"Iran is standing up for Armenia, and I'm not" - oh God this is getting ridicolous

[KanadaHye]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

First off it won't lead to our reclaiming ancestral land, second they don't recognise Genocide because of their strategic relations with Turkey and the important of Turkey to their national interests. Iran doesn't recognise Armenian Genocide either. Why is that?

Iran has no politics involved with the Armenian Genocide yet their leaders certainly acknowledge it as historical fact. Iranians didn't make any land claims due to the fall of the Ottoman Empire, they weren't even a part of it. Iranians aren't lobbying against it and Armenians in Iran have no reason to politicise the matter since they have no human rights issues with Iran's treatment of Christians. What reason do J3wish organizations in other countries have against Armenian Genocide recognition? Why do they endorse politicians who constantly vote against it?

Iran is standing up for its national interests, as every other country is, stop with that BS. Right now, it's in their national interests to be good with us.

Iran has been good with Armenians for generations. It's not some anomally due to current geopolitical conditions.

Christians in Iran
http://rt.com/online-exclusive/galle...ristians-iran/


St. Sarkis Church in Tehran


The monument to the Armenian genocide in the church

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Iran is not legitimate in denying the Holocaust or even putting it's legitimacy in question.

First of all, "Iran" hasn't addressed the topic - Ahmadinejad, one Iranian, is actually known for the Holocaust controversy. He has never said that J*ws were not killed by Germans in WWII. What he has said is that certain aspects of the famous "Holocaust Narrative" are clearly false -- and that as a global community we have been forced to accept it without debating it.

As one example: He is skeptical about the stories where it is claimed that "Germans shrunk the heads of J*ws": Here is a video:

While J*ws have pushed their Holocaust narrative on the masses, many prominent J*wish organizations have systematically blocked Armenians from even being able to obtain recognition for the crimes committed against them. Unless as a human being your job is to make yourself lower than J*wish people -- you have a right to object to these tactics. The word "J*w" is not a magic force-field against criticism - we have to be able to debate and criticize everything in a free society.

You can go to prison in Europe for even *questioning* any aspect of the Holocaust - but prominent Zionist groups fiercely block debate and recognition of the Armenian Genocide. It doesn't seem right. It doesn't seem moral. It doesn't seem that they consider Armenians as equal human beings.

I've even pointed out that a Holocaust survivor has written that J*wish hatred for Armenians has ancient historical roots: According to Holocaust survivor Dr. Israel Shahak, in his book "J*wish History, J*wish Religion," the practice of spitting on Armenians has ancient roots and has become increasingly commonplace in modern Israel:

"Dishonoring Christian religious symbols is an old religious duty in Judaism. Spitting on the cross, and especially on the Crucifix, and spitting when a xxx passes a church, have been obligatory from around AD 200 for pious xxxs. In the past, when the danger of anti-Semitic hostility was a real one, the pious xxxs were commanded by their rabbis either to spit so that the reason for doing so would be unknown, or to spit onto their chests, not actually on the cross or openly before the church. The increasing strength of the xxxish state has caused these customs to become more open again but there should be no mistake: The spitting on the cross for converts from Christianity to Judaism, organized in Kibbutz Sa'ad and financed by the Israeli government, is a an act of traditional xxxish piety."

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Armenians and Iranian may very well have DNA similarities given we have been neighbours for ages. However the DNA does not proof that we are ethnic cousins or brothers.

Using your same logic - someone could come along and say you have no proof that you are Armenian. (Anyone can learn a foreign language.)

I won't repost it: but I also put a up a long string of quotations from many Armenians stating things like: "My mom is Iranian and my dad is Armenian." It was a very long list.

Contrary to what you say, "evidence" has always included: photographs, DNA, ancient historical texts, shared cultural similarities, etc. etc.

Mos, I just don't think it's reasonable for you to keep denying the family histories of other Armenians - Where do you get the facts or authority to question the family histories of so many Armenians when many, even in modern times, openly speak of their shared Armenian/Iranian heritage?

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Iran has no politics involved with the Armenian Genocide yet their leaders certainly acknowledge it as historical fact. Iranians didn't make any land claims due to the fall of the Ottoman Empire, they weren't even a part of it. Iranians aren't lobbying against it and Armenians in Iran have no reason to politicise the matter since they have no human rights issues with Iran's treatment of Christians. What reason do J3wish organizations in other countries have against Armenian Genocide recognition? Why do they endorse politicians who constantly vote against it?



Iran has been good with Armenians for generations. It's not some anomally due to current geopolitical conditions.

Christians in Iran
http://rt.com/online-exclusive/galle...ristians-iran/


St. Sarkis Church in Tehran


The monument to the Armenian genocide in the church

I've also pointed out to Mos that there are MANY Armenian Genocide Memorials in Iran and that you cannot put up a memorial without official government approval. I challenged Mos to put up a memorial to Saddam Hussein, Britney Spear, or D-i-c-k Cheney in Tehran and to see what will happen.

[Mos]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Iran has no politics involved with the Armenian Genocide yet their leaders certainly acknowledge it as historical fact. Iranians didn't make any land claims due to the fall of the Ottoman Empire, they weren't even a part of it. Iranians aren't lobbying against it and Armenians in Iran have no reason to politicise the matter since they have no human rights issues with Iran's treatment of Christians. What reason do J3wish organizations in other countries have against Armenian Genocide recognition? Why do they endorse politicians who constantly vote against it?

Iran has been good with Armenians for generations. It's not some anomally due to current geopolitical conditions.

Iran doesn't have any politics involved because it doesn't have the strong lobbies that Israel has. In essence, Iran really doesn't have the ability to lobby. That being said Iran has all the room to recognise the Armenian Genocide, why shouldn't it? Don't try to make convenient excuses - they have all the room to recognise but they don't, and a large part of that is due to that they want to keep good relations with Turkey, with whom they have strong economic ties, as you see Turkey is an important country and people will be willing to side step the genocide issue to be good with Turkey.

I've said several times, the reason j3wish organisation supported Turkish organisations was because of the alliance between Israel and Turkey. However, since the fall of that alliance J3wish organisations have stopped blocking the recognition and even at times supported Armenian groups. Just comes to show that the whole opposition by the lobby was due to the strategic position at the time, not some world wide j3wish conspiracy to screw Armenians.

If it was not in Iran's interests to have good relations with Armenia, they wouldn't - they are like every other country, their self interests are first. Show me where in the Iranian foreign policy doctrine it says that our relations with Armenia come before our national interests?

First of all, "Iran" hasn't addressed the topic - Ahmadinejad, one Iranian, is actually known for the Holocaust controversy. He has never said that J*ws were not killed by Germans in WWII. What he has said is that certain aspects of the famous "Holocaust Narrative" are clearly false -- and that as a global community we have been forced to accept it without debating it.

While J*ws have pushed their Holocaust narrative on the masses, many prominent J*wish organizations have systematically blocked Armenians from even being able to obtain recognition for the crimes committed against them. Unless as a human being your job is to make yourself lower than J*wish people -- you have a right to object to these tactics. The word "J*w" is not a magic force-field against criticism - we have to be able to debate and criticize everything in a free society.

You can go to prison in Europe for even *questioning* any aspect of the Holocaust - but prominent Zionist groups fiercely block debate and recognition of the Armenian Genocide. It doesn't seem right. It doesn't seem moral. It doesn't seem that they consider Armenians as equal human beings.

You can go to prison in few European countries for denying the armenian genocide. In Netherlands there is a joint push by Armenian and Israeli lobby groups to get it passed there as well.

Holocaust is not some event that took place 200 years ago. There is clear tangible evidence what happened during Holocaust, what happened is not based off of what some J3ws are telling. So what are you trying to say? That it was not a Genocide, but "mass killings"? Sure let's debate if sky is blue or not. Wow you sound so much like the Turkish genocide deniers.

Using your same logic - someone could come along and say you have no proof that you are Armenian. (Anyone can learn a foreign language.)

I won't repost it: but I also put a up a long string of quotations from many Armenians stating things like: "My mom is Iranian and my dad is Armenian." It was a very long list.

Contrary to what you say, "evidence" has always included: photographs, DNA, ancient historical texts, shared cultural similarities, etc. etc.

Mos, I just don't think it's reasonable for you to keep denying the family histories of other Armenians - Where do you get the facts or authority to question the family histories of so many Armenians when many, even in modern times, openly speak of their shared Armenian/Iranian heritage?

Are you kidding me? I don't give a sh*t that one person's father is armenian, and mother persian, That doesn't prove anything, even if you have a list of several examples. PL You show me a scholarly paper that proves Iranians and Armenians are ethnic cousins or brothers and we will be talking then, stop showing pictures or personal example of some Persian-armenians that you know. Actually there is an interesting paper regarding Armenian DNA:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Weale-HG-01-Armenia.pdf

I've also pointed out to Mos that there are MANY Armenian Genocide Memorials in Iran and that you cannot put up a memorial without official government approval. I challenged Mos to put up a memorial to Saddam Hussein, Britney Spear, or D-i-c-k Cheney in Tehran and to see what will happen.

Monuments doesn't prove anything. There are Armenian monuments where ever there is a sizeable armenian population. And stop comparing Britney spears or xxxx cheney to Armenians, it's insulting.

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

I've said several times, the reason j3wish organisation supported Turkish organisations was because of the alliance between Israel and Turkey ... not some world wide j3wish conspiracy to screw Armenians.

Definition of conspiracy: "A private agreement between two or more people to do a wrongful act."

[W]hat happened during Holocaust, what happened is not based off of what some J3ws are telling. So what are you trying to say? That it was not a Genocide, but "mass killings"? Sure let's debate if sky is blue or not. Wow you sound so much like the Turkish genocide deniers.

Please educate me on the shrunken heads story - I want to learn the evidence that Germans shrunk J*wish heads (this is the only point I raised).

[Haykakan]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Mos you are a hot headed Iranian hater. I understand hating Iranians is a fab in Armenia but that does not make it right. Those monuments in Iran dedicated to us Armenians do mean something. Have you seen anythinng dedicated to armenians built in Turky or Isreal in the last 100 years? You seem to have nothing but hate for Iranians who have been friendly to us for a thousend years yet you give the zionists the befit of a dought when they have done nothing but fight our causes every step of the way. I understand-some iranian boy stole your girl and your pissed- that doesnt make you right. If Iranians are coming to Armenia to vacation and have fun then that is what they are gona do and there is no reason why they shouldnt get hi and chek out women-that is what u would be doing if u went on vacation to. Sit back for a second and think about what it is exactley that you hate and if it makes sence.

[Mos]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Mos you are a hot headed Iranian hater. I understand hating Iranians is a fab in Armenia but that does not make it right. Those monuments in Iran dedicated to us Armenians do mean something. Have you seen anythinng dedicated to armenians built in Turky or Isreal in the last 100 years? You seem to have nothing but hate for Iranians who have been friendly to us for a thousend years yet you give the zionists the befit of a dought when they have done nothing but fight our causes every step of the way. I understand-some iranian boy stole your girl and your pissed- that doesnt make you right. If Iranians are coming to Armenia to vacation and have fun then that is what they are gona do and there is no reason why they shouldnt get hi and chek out women-that is what u would be doing if u went on vacation to. Sit back for a second and think about what it is exactley that you hate and if it makes sence.

When have I said that I hated Iran? I don't hate Iran, and actually have some good Persian friends. All I'm doing is looking at politics through a pragmatic and logical view, rather than falling into this "brotherhood" fervour nonsense. The world is not black-and-white and analysis must be used rather than people blindly supporting teams and not looking closely at the facts.

First off, why would anything dedicated to Armenian Genocide be built in Turkey, and have I ever suggested that Turkey is a friend to us? All I'm saying that wherever there are Armenians, monuments get built. If there were no Armenians in Iran, those churches or monuments wouldn't exist.

Though the Armenian community is small in Israel, there have been somethings commerating Armenians here and there, just showing it's only dependent on our presence:

I join you, members of the Armenian community, on your Memorial Day, as you mark the 85th anniversary of your genocide. I am here, with you, as a human being, as a xxx, as an Israeli, and as Education Minister of the State of Israel.

Every year, Armenians gather in Israel and all over the world to remember and to remind the world of the terrible disaster, that befell your people at the beginning of the last century.

For many years, too many years, you were alone on your Memorial Day. I'm aware of the special significance of my presence here today along with other Israelis. Today perhaps for the first time you are less alone.

The Armenian Memorial Day should be a day of reflection and introspection for all of us, a day of soul-searching. On this day, we as xxxs, victims of the Shoah should examine our relationship to the pain of others.

The massacre, which was carried out by the Turks against the Armenians in 1915 and 1916, was one of the most horrible acts to occur in modern times.

The xxxish ambassador of America to Turkey in those days, Henry Morgenthau, described the massacre as "The greatest crime in modern history." Morgenthau did not predict what was in store later in the 20th century for the xxxs, the Shoah, the most terrible of all is still in front of our eyes.

The person who was most shocked and shocked many people was the Prague-born xxxish author, Franz Werfel, with his masterpiece The Forty Days of Musa Dagh.. The idea for writing the book was born in March 1929, when Werfel visited Damascus on his way to Palestine. He wrote: "The pitiful scene of the starved and mutilated children of the Armenian refugees gave me the last push to redeem the cruel fate of the Armenian people from the abyss of oblivion."

The book that appeared in German in 1933 shocked millions of people. Adolf Hitler was then in power. The Forty Days of Musa Dagh was thrown into the flames along with other forbidden books. The book was translated into Hebrew in 1934, and influenced many young people in Eretz Israel including me.

For me and for many youngsters my generation in Israel, The Forty Days of Musa Dagh had a formative effect on our personality and our world outlook.

Today in Israel very few youngsters have heard about Musa Dagh, very few know about the Armenian Genocide. I know how important the position of the xxxs, and especially the attitude of the State of Israel to your genocide, are for Armenians in the world. As Minister of Education of the State of Israel, I will do whatever is in my capacity in order that this monumental work The Forty Days of Musa Dagh is once more well known to our children. I will do everything in order that Israeli children learn and know about the Armenian Genocide. Genocide is a crime against humanity and there is nothing more horrible and odious than Genocide. One of the objectives of our education- our main objective- is to instill sensitivity to the harm to the innocent based on nationality alone. We, xxxs, as principal victims of murderous hatred are doubly obligated to be sensitive, to identify with other victims.

We have to evoke among the young generation natural and deep indignation against manifestations of genocide in the past, in the present and in future. Genocide is the root of all evil and we have to make supreme political and educational efforts to uproot and extirpate it.

Whoever stands indifferent in front of it, or ignores it, whoever makes calculations, whoever is silent always helps the perpetrator of the crime and not the murdered.

In 1918, Shmuel Talkowsky, the secretary of Chaim Weizmann wrote with the approval of Weitzman, an important article entitled "The Armenian Question from a Zionist Standpoint."

Among other things, he said. "We, Zionists, have deep and candid sympathy for the fate of the Armenian people. We do this as human beings, as xxxs and as Zionists. As human beings our motto is: I am a human being. Whatever affects another human being affects me."

"As xxxs, as an ancient exiled people we suffered in all parts of the world. I dare say, they made us experts of martyrdom. Our humanitarian sentiments are so sharpened that nobody matches us. The suffering of any nation no matter how foreign to us or how far from us, affects deeply the chords of our souls, and created between us and the suffering nation a profound sympathy which we can call the "brotherhood of affliction." Among the nations who suffer in our neighborhood there is no nation whose martyrdom is more similar than the Armenian people. As Zionists we have several reasons to sympathize with the Armenian Question. As Zionism by its essence is nothing but the xxxish expression of the demand for national justice, it is natural and logical, that the struggle of a nation for emancipation arouses in us a profound interest. We are convinced that in that region of the globe- the Middle East- the birthplace of our nation- Eretz Israel, is only a small part of it, will secure peace and prosperity when the well-defined national aspirations will be fulfilled (to the maximum extent possible.) In our view, a free and prosperous Armenia, free and prosperous Arab land and free and prosperous Eretz Israel are the three pillars on which will be built peace and calm in the Middle East."

This is what the secretary of Chaim Weizmann wrote more than 80 years ago, things that are important and just, that stress the value of human life, no matter who- xxx, Arab, Armenian, Gypsy, Bosnian, Albanian or Rwandan- and I want this lofty message to be imparted to all our students in our school history curriculum; a new program which is now in the process of being written.

I would like to see a central chapter on genocide, on this huge and inhuman atrocity. The Armenian genocide should occupy a prominent place in this program which does justice to the national and personal memory of every one of you, to the memory of all the members of your nation. This is our obligation to you; this is our obligation to ourselves.

Now we are on the eve of our Feast. It is the Feast of our freedom and we emerge from slavery to redemption. From slavery to freedom.

This is what we wish to every nation and also to the Armenian people--Freedom and Redemption--Redemption and Freedom.

------------------------------------

Union of Armenians of Israel “Ararat” has initiated building of the first memorial of the Armenian Genocide in Petach Tikva, Israel. As PanARMENIAN.Net reporter came to know from the head of Union of Armenians of Israel Ashot Martirosyan, they already have the agreement with municipality of the city. Ashot Martirosyan's letter to all Armenians is presented below:

“Dear Compatriots.

The building of the memorial of the Armenian Genocide, dedicated to the 95th anniversary of the Genocide, begins, on the initiative of "Ararat", the Union of Armenians in Israel, and according to the agreement with the Municipality of Petach Tikva. Numerous countries have recognized the Armenian Genocide of 1915, memorials dedicated to the victims of the Great Genocide soar in different corners of the world, and building a memorial in the sacred country, in Israel, is not only symbolic, but also one more step toward restoring the historical justice.

For carrying out the sacred mission of creating a memorial, dedicated to the victims of the Genocide in 1915, we expect your financial assistance, we ask you all for moral and material support, through which you will be recognized official patrons of the memorial and will have your contribution in the sacred work of immortalizing the memory of the victims of the Genocide. We are grateful for your help and support.”

@Persopolis, I'm not talking about shrunken heads, I'm talking about the fact of Genocide. Was it Genocide or not?

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Why would anything dedicated to Armenian Genocide be built in Turkey, and have I ever suggested that Turkey is a friend to us? All I'm saying that wherever there are Armenians, monuments get built. If there were no Armenians in Iran, those churches or monuments wouldn't exist.

The real question is why you keep knocking Iran and questioning its motives and dozens of memorials to the Armenian Genocide in light of centuries of friendly relations with Armenians while you keep side-stepping Israel's long-standing hostility to Armenians and glorificaton of Attaturk?

Shame on Israel for putting up memorials to Attaturk before begrudgingly and barely starting to realize that they must recognize the Armenian Genocide (a lot of it due to Armenian and Iranian pressure and advocacy on the issue):

Zionism & Pan-Turkism Are Cut From the Same Cloth -- Attaturk's Bust in Israel (Recognizing One of their 'Native Sons').


(The Israelis actually wanted to put this monstrosity up in Jerusalem, and Iran called on Palestinians to protest it.)

HERE IS THE POLITICAL CONTEXT:

Israel has strongly prevented recognition of the Armenian genocide and has supported the Turkish Lobby in Washington from preventing the United States Congress to recognize the events of 1915 in Ottoman Turkey as Genocide. Now this may change as Turkey presses Israel on human rights for Palestinians, Israel will use the Armenian Genocide as a weapon against Turkey. (Of course, it would be a hollow political move because we know where the majority of the J*wish community has stood on the Armenian Genocide since 1915). For Israel, the Armenian Genocide is nothing more than a weapon to be used against Turkey if confronted by Turkey on the Palestinian Genocide. (For heaven's sake: Israelis spit on Armenians and sell weapons to the Azerbaboons for exterminating Armenians - it's not like it would be based on love.)

Iran never played these games - and has dozens of memorials to the Armenian Genocide, while the Pan-Turkists and Zionists will only be forced to confront the issue when the issue of the Palestinian Genocide is also discussed. In other words, if Armenians want Turkey to be confronted by Israel on this issue, you must push for recognition of the Palestinian Genocide by Turkey. Only then may Israel retaliate against Turkey and recognize the Armenian Genocide.

What I think would be amusing is for Armenians to insist that a Genocide Memorial be built right next to the statue of Attaturk in Israel.