Iranian-Armenian relations

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

I know that, but don't be under the illusion that they did that because they felt bad for us. No, their help for us was based on the fact that we had similar interests in the region.

Mos I want to learn from you; so I have Four Questions For You:

QUESTIONS:

1. How do you know that Iranians do not help Armenia because of emotional-bonds, feelings of friendship, kinship or historical ties that are totally independent of, for example, purely self-motivated reasons, like economic interests? What I am trying to determine is if you followed a specific scientific methodology based on hard-data that gives you special insight into the inner-workings of the minds and motives of Iranians? (Alternatively, if you have a good fortune teller, I'd like her name - especially if she's attractive. )

2. To be certain, businessmen from different countries generally do cooperate to further mutual interests (for example: to obtain joint profit from a joint venture); It would be silly and irrational to characterize all business/political deals as being based on charity (people need to earn a living and mutal profit ensures that goal). However, people can also choose who they do business with; and if they don't like a prospective business partner they can refocus to alternate markets: For example, Iran has many large trading partners: Russia/China/South American States/Europe. Iran also chooses not to do business with Israel even though joint Iran-&-Israel business ventures would be extremely profitable (let's face it: Iran and Israel could set up a something close to an economic hegemony from the Caspian to the Mediterranean if they wanted to). Based on the forgoing, would it be safe to conclude that Iran chooses to do business with Armenia because (a) it likes Armenia & Armenians and (b) because joint projects yield mutual benefits? Do you agree or disagree, and what are your reasons?

3. Iran subsidizes Armenian Churches (about 150 of them); Iranian students (regular people) often actively join in protests seeking recognition of the Armenian Genocide (I was one of them). What concrete economic benefits do these Iranians obtain from these projects -- Where is the big financial payout to those Iranians?

4. In post-after-post-after-post: I see you supporting Israel while its publicly known that Israel is supplying sophisticated weaponry during a time of war to Azerbaijan (Armenia's adversary); those weapons have been and will be used against Armenians soldiers and citizens if hostilities resume. What are your reasons for supporting Israel, as evidenced by many of your prior posts, against this well-known factual backdrop? E.g., Family ties? Religious reasons? Job offer with an Israeli company? Favorite singer or football team is from Israel? (Seriously, give me some insight so I can learn from your thought process.)

Respectfully, Persopolis.

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

This topic is made to discuss the Iranian-Armenian relationship.

This video was made by one of my Armenian friends on youtube - There need to be more like it:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeLGUleXGmE

[Mos]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

[QUOTE=Persopolis;308903]Mos I want to learn from you; so I have Four Questions For You:

QUESTIONS:

1. How do you know that Iranians do not help Armenia because of emotional-bonds, feelings of friendship, kinship or historical ties that are totally independent of, for example, purely self-motivated reasons, like economic interests? What I am trying to determine is if you followed a specific scientific methodology based on hard-data that gives you special insight into the inner-workings of the minds and motives of Iranians? (Alternatively, if you have a good fortune teller, I'd like her name - especially if she's attractive. )

How do I know? Because foreign relations is not based on emotional feelings. It's based on self-interest and economic motives. You only have such "emotional" attachment between countries that have a tangible ethnic connection. So like Turkey-Azerbaijan or Armenia-Karabakh. It's not about hard data, it's about understanding a fundamental element to international politics. Countries don't have the luxury to base their policies based on emotions attachments - countries may pretend that they do (e.g. USA with democracy) but in reality it's whatever benefits them the most.

Because of the Iran-Azerbaijan political tensions, having good relations with Armenia is a good way to put pressure on the Azeris and to show them their significance. For Armenia, good relations with iran is very important, especially in economic sphere, because we are blockaded by 2 fronts. We need all the open borders that we can get. And don't forget Iran's economic pressure by international community.

2. To be certain, businessmen from different countries generally do cooperate to further mutual interests (for example: to obtain joint profit from a joint venture); It would be silly and irrational to characterize all business/political deals as being based on charity (people need to earn a living and mutal profit ensures that goal). However, people can also choose who they do business with; and if they don't like a prospective business partner they can refocus to alternate markets: For example, Iran has many large trading partners: Russia/China/South American States/Europe. Iran also chooses not to do business with Israel even though joint Iran-&-Israel business ventures would be extremely profitable (let's face it: Iran and Israel could set up a something close to an economic hegemony from the Caspian to the Mediterranean if they wanted to). Based on the forgoing, would it be safe to conclude that Iran chooses to do business with Armenia because (a) it likes Armenia & Armenians and (b) because joint projects yield mutual benefits? Do you agree or disagree, and what are your reasons?

By the same logic, Armenia and Azerbaijan could be very strong economic partners. But of course there is a political issue (Karabakh) that has prevented any relations with going forward. If there hadn't been conflict with Azeris, we would have fine relations with them, economically and politically.

If the economic projects didn't yield benefits for both sides, they wouldn't happen. Why would a businessman set up a project to only benefit the opposing side? This is not charity, this is business.

3. Iran subsidizes Armenian Churches (about 150 of them); Iranian students (regular people) often actively join in protests seeking recognition of the Armenian Genocide (I was one of them). What concrete economic benefits do these Iranians obtain from these projects -- Where is the big financial payout to those Iranians?

Well there is a sizeable Armenian community there, and the political elements of Iran want to have good relations with the Armenian community (why wouldn't you?). But this is done in many countries, it doesn't mean that that particular country has an emotional attachment to Armenia. In Baku, centre of the city, there is a Armenian Church that stands, and actually went under renovation recently, and conversely a Mosque in Yerevan.

4. In post-after-post-after-post: I see you supporting Israel while its publicly known that Israel is supplying sophisticated weaponry during a time of war to Azerbaijan (Armenia's adversary); those weapons have been and will be used against Armenians soldiers and citizens if hostilities resume. What are your reasons for supporting Israel, as evidenced by many of your prior posts, against this well-known factual backdrop? E.g., Family ties? Religious reasons? Job offer with an Israeli company? Favorite singer or football team is from Israel? (Seriously, give me some insight so I can learn from your thought process.)

Respectfully, Persopolis.

When have I supported Israel? I support one country, and that is Armenia, and whatever country supports Armenia. So if Israel decides to actively support Armenia one day, I will support it, if it doesn't I won't. Iran is on good terms with Armenia and has helped us, especially in economic sphere, so I support Iran. But to Armenians the most important country to us is Russia as they have throughout history been on our side in our conflict against the Turks, and till this day stand as our sole protectors and supporters militarily and strategically.

[Eddo211]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Remember the other side of the coin Mos.....I have already told you what it is. 5 letters. Very few countries have this between them.

Look at Ahmadi's left hand in the above handshake picture, should give you a hint.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Remember the other side of the coin Mos.....I have already told you what it is. 5 letters. Very few countries have this between them.

Look at Ahmadi's left hand in the above handshake picture, should give you a hint.

5 letter word. It starts and ends with the same letter and has us in between.

[Mos]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Remember the other side of the coin Mos.....I have already told you what it is. 5 letters. Very few countries have this between them.

Look at Ahmadi's left hand in the above handshake picture, should give you a hint.

If there's something to gain, anything can be "shown", like trust. You think US doesn't pamper their relations with dictatorships with things like "trust" or "close allies" when really they are just after the oil or other resources?

It's strategic convenience. Given the current geopolitics it's the most logical for us to have good relations with Iran. Iran or Armenia wouldn't go out of their way to have close relations with each other - only they would do so if there was potential for geopolitical and/or economic gain. Countries don't run charities here - they don't have luxury to help out countries because they have some sort of attachment to them.

Another example. Why is Georgia so pro-Western? Is it because they have some special attachment to the West? Or that they have some special yearning for Western democracy? That's all BS. They are pro-West because they want their territories back, which are Russian supported. It's only logical with their rivalry with Russia they will turn to NATO/US. That is why Georgia has closer strategic relations with Azerbaijan. It's not because they "like" Azeri people, no it's purely geo-political motivations which again drive pretty much all of the world's politics. I don't understand why people are not able to grasp this fundamental and rather logical sentiment. You really think Iran is good with Armenia, because they feel "emotionally attached" or "feel bad for us"?

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

You really think Iran is good with Armenia, because they feel "emotionally attached" or "feel bad for us"?

Mos, I wouldn't choose your words exactly - but there is more than just "Geopolitical Decision Making" by Iran at issue when it comes to Armenia - and the historical record shows this. Let me give you an example of both dynamics at work: That is, (1) self-interested decision-making by Persia and (2) altruism by Persia towards Armenians. Both can operate at the same time -- they are not mutually exclusive.

HISTORICAL LESSONS

1. Persian Self-Interest.

When Persia's Shah Abbas came to power in 1587, he faced serious military threats from the Uzbek-Turks in the east and the Ottoman-Turks in the west -- both Turkish groups wanted to slaughter Armenians and use Armenian fortifications as a staging ground to take over Persia. Abbas first engaged in diplomacy with the Ottomans in 1590 to allow himself time to defeat the Uzbek army. Once the Persian army was done destroying the Uzbek army. Abbas turned his attention to the Ottomans who had grown impatient and were preparing to invade Persia through Armenia.

Abbas needed to reconstitute the soldiers in his army after the war with the Uzbek-Turks and needed a means to diminish the number of Ottoman-Turk forces. As the Ottoman army marched towards Armenia, Shah Abbas ordered all Armenians from the regions of Van, Bayazit, and Nakhichevan to evacuate and Shah Abbas ordered Armenians to destroy their dwelling houses, and crops; However, he explicitly ordered that Armenian monuments not be touched. (Long after those Armenian towns were emptied, the khachkars, which are unique to Armenian burials, stood for centuries -- until a few years ago when the Azerbaijan military started smashing many of them to erase historical facts.) To be certain, the Persian order to destroy Armenian dwelling houses and crops was Persian self-interest to weaken the invading Ottoman army. So, if you concluded that Persian military self-interest was at issue, you would be correct; but this is not the whole story. (Keep reading.)

2. Persian Altruism towards Armenians.

Over 300,000 Armenians were relocated across the Arax River into Persia; they weren't abandoned or left to die in the places where their villages had once stood. Remember, the dwellings and crops Armenians had were laid to waste so that the Ottomans could not benefit from them. Shah Abbas reduced the numbers of the invading Ottoman army by starving them, denying them shelter and a military staging ground (Trust me: it sucks to be stuck outdoors in the winter without food or housing.). If Persia hadn't done this, we would be talking today about the Armenian Genocide - Part I & Part II. The Ottomans wanted Armenians killed centuries ago -- long before the Armenian Genocide that actually occurred.

So what happened to the Armenians?

The Armenians were relocated into the heart of Persian land in the South -- far away from the battle front; villages were built for the Armenians, and many Armenians were located in Isfahan (one of Iran's best cities, even to this day). Nearby, Abbas also ordered a new city to be built for Armenians, which was named "New Julfa" in honor of the town from which the Armenians had come, Julfa. These Armenians eventually established schools and churches, and rebuilt their lives. (When you meet a ParsKaHye today, consider that they might not have been born if the Persian government acted purely out of self-interest and left the Armenians at the mercy of the Ottomans, or left them to die without crops or shelter, or without Persian financial support to build new towns and the chance to reestablish their lives.)

In other words, there was also altruism: Persia's King didn't want to see Armenians die (otherwise he would have just sacked their villages and left them to the Ottomans to buy his army more time; Persia also did not want to see Armenian historical monuments destroyed - hence, the ancient khachkars that stood for centuries. As a consequence, ParsKaHye have flourished longer in Iran than in any other foreign land (including Glendale, California); We accept Armenians as our own people. Someone, posted the story of Iran’s first female astronomer and physics professor, an Armenian by the name of Alenoush Terian. Please read this version from the "Armenian Weekly."
http://www.armenianweekly.com/2010/1...enoush-terian/

I suggest you ask yourself serious questions about the breadth and nature of Iranian motives that have contributed to millions of Armenians flourishing in Iran (Persia) over many centuries. Moreover, Pan-Turkism is still a danger -- from the west and from the east. Use your time and energy wisely.

Let me leave you with a Persian Proverb:

"History is a mirror of the past
And a lesson for the present."

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

‘A Shameful Act’ Published in Farsi, Akcam Tours Iran http://www.armenianweekly.com/2010/07/06/akcam-iran/

TEHRAN, Iran (A.W.)—From June 21-28, Prof. Taner Akcam visited Iran for lectures dedicated to the launching of the Farsi translation of his book A Shameful Act: The Armenian Genocide and the Question of Turkish Responsibility. The Armenian Prelacy of Tehran and the Commemoration Committee of the 95th Anniversary of the Armenian Genocide organized the visit.

The first event took place in Tehran on June 23 at the Armenian Cultural Society (Hayots Akoomb). The speakers were Robert Beglatian, the parliamentary representative of Armenians in the southern regions of Iran; Dr. Ayda Hovhanissian from the Armenian Prelacy of Tehran; and Akcam.

Iranian Parliamentary members, university professors, students, researchers, authors, Armenian community representatives, and a public of more than 300 attended the event.

The second event took place in Isfahan on June 25, with Beglarian and Akcam speaking.

[Armanen]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Persopolis I agree with most of what you wrote above, but the turkic groups in the east did not desire to kill off the Armenians. Historically Armenians have had good relations with almost all Mongol and turkic groups save the seljuks, ottomans, and caucasian tatars.

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

^ ^ ^
Fair enough (N.B. For the sake of furthering the discussion, omit the "Uzbeks" from the list - my discussion relies on cooperation b/w the Ottomans and Uzbeks during the 14th Century; see also below)

"During the eleventh to fourteenth centuries, Armenia was subjected to a number of attacks and invasions by Turco-Mongol peoples. The most important of these were the invasions of the Seljuks in the second half of the eleventh century, of the Khwarazmians (1225-1230), and of the Mongols (1223-1247). At the end of the fourteenth century, an already exhausted Armenia was devastated again by the Turco-Mongol armies of Timur-Leng." Quote by Robert Bedrosian. Timur-Leng's Birthplace = Shahrisabz, Uzbekistan. Capital of the Timur Empire = Samarkand, Uzbekistan..