Iranian-Armenian relations

[Armanen]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Transport: Iran designates $60m for highway project

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Iran has allocated $60 million for a new highway into Armenia and improvements on roadway from Iran to Georgia via Armenia, IRNA news agency reports.


Iranian Parliament Member Ali Reza Manadi says that the road will become a bridge connecting Iran with Armenia, and lead to developing of adjacent settlements along the way.

The 550 kilometer (341 miles) highway is estimated to cost $1.5 billion, $500 million of which was agreed upon by the Armenian government and Asian bank in 2009. So far, only $300,000 has been allocated for the initial work.

http://armenianow.com/economy/28115/iran_transport_armenia

[Mos]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

@Persepolis

I am not denying the hospitality that Iran showed to Armenian people, and allowed Armenians, as Christians, to enjoy full rights in the country. But on the other hand in the same manner Armenians enjoyed full rights in numerous countries not only in Iran. Before the anti-Armenian campaigns, Armenians were highly regarded in Ottoman Empire, and many high/elite positions were held by Armenians. Armenians too enjoyed their rights under the Ottomans, and any place where Armenian diaspora has flourished. That being said, Persia's welcoming of Armenians 500 years ago, does not drive the foreign policy of Iran today. Are France and Germany still hating each other today? How about USA and Britain? You did not address my points that I made in my post, and instead brought up this event, which does not justify current Iranian policy towards Armenia. Heck, go back few decades, and Iran and Israel were close buddies. Foreign relations is dynamic, it is constantly changing in order to satisfy that country's needs.

Here is an excerpt from an article that was written about Armenian foreign policy, it reflects some of what I've said:

Another test of the policies of “complementarism” is Armenia’s relationship with Iran. While historically Iran has often been perceived as a threat, today Armenia enjoys a close relationship with the country. Reconciling the need to maintain good relations with Iran and Armenia’s partnership with the USA was relatively easy in the 1990s, when moderates and reformers like Rafsanjani and Khattami dominated Iranian politics. However, the balancing act became more difficult when relations between Iran and the US (and the West in general) deteriorated under Bush and Ahmadinejad. In general, though, the West has viewed Armenia’s cooperation with Iran with understanding, since Armenia’s geopolitics and conflicts with Turkey and Azerbaijan make good relations with Iran a strategic necessity for Armenia. In its turn the Iranian leadership has been keen to preserve the good relationship with Armenia and resisted calls from some radicals to openly support Muslim “brothers” in Azerbaijan against Armenia in the Karabakh conflict. Of course, Iran has a number of unresolved issues in its relationship with Azerbaijan that influence its policies in the South Caucasus.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

This article was published originally on 24/05/2005

The Armenians of Isfahan, a Christian minority in the land of Mullahs [Outgoing Special Iran : 2/10]
http://www.caucaz.com/home_eng/breve_contenu.php?id=158

But the heart of Armenian identity is to be found elsewhere in the area. Archbishop Babgen Vartabet Tsharian, who has left for Tehran to welcome Catholicos II on a visit to Iran, is a key figure in New Julfa.

You’ll usually see him in the courtyard of the St Saviour church. The church is a marvel of religious architecture dating from the 17th century and, if its more fervent admirers are anything to go by, it is one of the most beautiful churches in the Muslim world.

“The history of St Saviour is linked to that of the Armenians of Isfahan”, explains Rima, a 33 year-old teacher.

“The first chapel was built in 1606, at the time when Shah Abbas I forced 30,000 Armenians, mostly merchants, to emigrate out of present-day Nakhichevan to this part of Isfahan, which was the capital of Persia at the time.”

Having been afforded complete religious freedom right from the start, this merchant community played a key role back then in the trade of silk and spices, with a vast network of trading posts between East and West.

Today, the current watchword in New Julfa is the preservation of the Armenian identity. “We live separately from Muslims in order to protect our culture. We try to keep relations with those outside our society strictly to business”, explains Rima defensively, a smile on her lips and a certain sense of determination. “We have succeeded in keeping our community together for 400 years. We must carry on doing so.”

[Eddo211]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Tell me Mos, why did Iran send food and supplies to the starving Armenians in Karabakh war when they were facing strong protest from Turkey and Azerbaijan for doing so, and even up to today they still get condemned and get sht over it. What advantage and national interests did they achieve or gain other than damaging their relations with those two rich countries who are Muslim brothers and a bigger strategical advantage to Iran.

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Every Armenian needs to see this site: It shows how the Persian empire protected Armenian historical sites and artifacts for centuries -- and the recent Pan-Turkist (Azerbaijan-Political Elite) attempts to erase those facts by destroying monuments: http://riowang.blogspot.com/2009/07/...-of-julfa.html

"While the Iranian state renovates the Armenian churches in Northern Iran and submits them to the World Heritage List of UNESCO, some hundred meters further on, on the other side of the boundary river they do everything so that theirs disappear without a trace." From above link.

That's an excellent article that KanadaHye posted -- here is another quote from that Article:

"[T]he Armenian community of Isfahan could be described as middle-class, enjoying a more comfortable standard of living than the majority of Muslim Iranians. She admits that certain religious minorities, hers in particular, but also xxxs and Zoroastrians, enjoy a freedom that is as exceptional as it is unexpected within the Islamic Republic. Armenians could even pass for privileged members of society in this strict regime." http://www.caucaz.com/home_eng/breve_contenu.php?id=158

Anyone that thinks Persian/Armenian historical ties and friendships are narrowly based on some emotionless and self-interested political motives - does not understand history. The worst thing that can happen to Armenians in the region is for outside forces to convince Armenians to leave Iran and forget the historical ties. Never fall for the Zionist/Pan-Turkic divide-&-conquer games.

In my humble opinion, Zionism/Pan-Turkism/The Khazars/Stalin are exactly the same -- or substantially related.

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Heck, go back few decades, and Iran and Israel were close buddies. Foreign relations is dynamic, it is constantly changing in order to satisfy that country's needs.

Again, you're missing the point - or want to keep missing the point. Yes, foreign relations do include policy determinations that factor in considerations "to satisy a country's needs." I'll write this twice: It's true, and it's correct. However, factoring in a country's needs are not the only considerations where two adjoining states have millennia of favorable and intertwined cultural, ethnic, historical, economic, and military ties (collectively hereafter "the X variables"). In such cases: "Satisfying the country's needs" is not the only factor taken into account -- The X variables are also considered.

A few examples: Iran and Samoa have economic relations - but if one of Iran's allies goes to war with Samoa, Iran might break ties with Samoa and sell arms to be used against Samoa. In such a case, Iran never would consider its Millennia of cultural, ethnic, historical, economic, and military ties with Samoa because they don't exist. Mos, you are comparing apples to oranges. No X variables exist with Israel, or Samoa, or Papua New Guinea.

Iran may have engaged in trade with Israel during the Pahlavi regime - but also there were no X variables at play - just like with Samoa. I was alive during the Pahlavi regime - I don't give a hoot that Iran doesn't do business with Israel anymore -- I have no emotional attachment. On the other hand, I would be extremely offended as an Iranian if Iran didn't do business with Armenia or did not have a ParsKaHye community. Foreign policy determinations are not purely made based on "needs" -- if that was true for Iran; centuries ago it would have ganged up with the Ottomans and made a deal over Armenia instead of trying to save Armenia and Armenians from extinction (it would have made sense for the two bigger powers to gang up to serve their own self-interests by dividing-up Armenia); Don't think for a minute that Turkey hasn't floated this offer repeatedly throughout history. What caused Iran to not only resist these offers but to go to war with the Ottomans over it: The X variables were certainly among the reasons.

What you seem to be doing is denying the X variables between Iran/Armenia and therefore attempting to downgrade the Iran/Armenia relationship to some arms-length, emotion-free calculation wholly divorced from historical facts. That's what Stalin and Pan-Turkists did - strip people of their historical shared identities and relationships in order to set them up for divide-&-conquer politics. Should that happen, Armenia would be extremely vulnerable: Persians would consider Armenian like Samoa and Armenians would consider Persians as they do Hong Kong -- a terrible outcome. And in such a case, when a foreign power comes to exert improper influence in the region, engage in genocide, or take land - there will be indifference in the adjoining states -- where previously there was an intangible defensive shield.

[Mos]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Let me ask you again, would Iran have the relations with Armenia that it has now, if it didn't gain anything from its relations? If Iran-Azeri tensions did not exist, and they were on good terms, would Iran-Armenian relations be as strong? The answers to these are simple. Iranian people may very well be well disposed to Armenians, but politicians in the end of the day are just politicians. Iran has a wide variety of problems for itself and it needs to position itself in the most strong geopolitical position. If Armenia one day became fiercely pro-Israel/USA and Azerbaijan resolved its problems with Iran, I can bet you Iran-Armenia relations would be very cool. As you see, it's all based on the geopolitical position and convenience. You have to be careful not to mix the sentiment of everyday people with the intentions of politicians who are the policy makers of the country.

As for your argument that Persians didn't gang up with Ottomans, remember Persia and the Ottomans were historical adversaries, and of course Russia was in the mix as well. Adversaries don't decide on a whim to join together.

As for culture, as Armenian who lives in Armenia every year, I can say that we are culturally more close to ex-Soviet nations especially Georgia, Russia, or even Ukraine than Iran. Of course there are cultural similarities here and there with Iran, but the Soviet Union had a huge influence on Armenian thinking and culture. Any Armenian (from Armenia at least) will have more in common with a Russian than a Persian - this is fact. I have translated for tourists actually, many Iranian in Yerevan, and the interaction between Iranians and the Armenians I can say is formal and more on a business level. They just seem like the other foreign tourists from Europe or America. When there are Russians, however, that's a different story. So, Parska hyes will be obviously closer to Iran and Iranian culture, but Armenians from Armenia don't view Iranians as some special close group. We just view you guys as the non-Turk Muslim nation to the South, which we are on relative good terms with.

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

[1] Would Iran have the relations with Armenia that it has now, if it didn't gain anything from its relations?

[2] If Armenia one day became fiercely pro-Israel/USA and Azerbaijan resolved its problems with Iran, I can bet you Iran-Armenia relations would be very cool.

[3] As for your argument that Persians didn't gang up with Ottomans, remember Persia and the Ottomans were historical adversaries....

[4] As for culture, as Armenian who lives in Armenia every year, I can say that we are culturally more close to ex-Soviet nations especially Georgia, Russia, or even Ukraine than Iran.

[5] I have translated for tourists actually, many Iranian in Yerevan, and the interaction between Iranians and the Armenians I can say is formal and more on a business level.

[6] We just view you guys as the non-Turk Muslim nation to the South, which we are on relative good terms with.

MY ANSWERS AS NUMBERED TO YOUR COMMENTS:

1. I've already answered this - but you've refused to acknowledge it. I'll try again: MY ANSWER: "Yes" people engage in joint business ventures with the goal of mutual profit/benefit. To use your words, if a country "didn't gain anything from its relations," there would be less incentive to undertake joint projects. However, that does not necessarily mean there is no incentive for areas of mutual cooperation, economic aid, or business cooperation for other non-profit reasons. As I have pointed out, countries with historical ties, family relationships (You're not denying Armenians and Iranians intermarried over many centuries, are you?), and other non-economic ties, still help each other out. When? For example, Iran donates millions to Armenian churches and from the churches it gets nothing of serious economic value in return (It's a church not a shoe factory.). I've never heard of a single Iranian ever complain about this. The Armenian churches didn't even have to ask for the aid - Iran just gives it. It's up to you to figure out why. (I'm sure you will think of a sinister reason why.)

2. No kidding - if Armenia became "fiercely pro-Israel" considering the current dynamic of possible nuclear war between Iran & Israel, why would it surprise you that relations would "cool" with Armenia? I've never heard of a country tolerating an existential threat of nuclear war from a bordering country out of friendship. I bet if Armenia became "fiercely pro-Israel," relations between many Parskahyes, particularly those living in Iran, and Armenia would also "cool." What does that prove? If Iran sharpened Ghengis Khan's swords for him and built "Mustafa Kemal Atatürk's House of Kabab" on Armenia's border, would Armenians greet Iran with open arms? Doubt it. One of your brethren tried to explain to you that there exist historical grounds for "trust" between Iran and Armenia. Why you've devoted so much of your time on this blog to undermining that - when you could be strengthening those ties or at least posting more information on, for example, initiatives for recognition of the Armenian Genocide or exposing corruption within Azeri government -- is not something that can readily be ascertained over the internet unless you volunteer that information.

3. Yes. Ottomans-&-Iranians were historical adversaries; We hate Pan-Turkism for the same reasons you do. What's your point? My point is that if Persians were PURELY acting out of self-interest, we would not have brought Armenians into our country and built them towns so they could live like human beings when the Ottomans, Mongols and Khazars wanted to rape your women and genocide you starting in the 11th to 14th centuries.

4. It's not surprising that in Yerevan "you are culturally more close to ex-Soviet nations especially Georgia, Russia, or even Ukraine." It's like the old joke - "Why don't you call your mother anymore?" Starting in 1829 and up to recent times, Russia-&-The USSR built a giant fence around Armenia with a sign on it that said "Property of Joseph Stalin - 150 years of Social Experiments Underway - Do not Disturb." But that didn't happen in New Julfa (Iran) or in Glendale (California). Am I surprised that in Yerevan people may enjoy the same types of foods or songs that are popular in Russia? No - you ate 150 years Borscht that people in Glendale and New Julfa didn't. Accordingly, you shouldn't be surprised to find a cultural gap - even among Armenians - that didn't exist before throughout history. Nevertheless, countries in the Caucauses are rediscovering their roots:

Last Year the President of Georgia declared: "Entire Georgia celebrates this holiday (The Persian New Year - "Nowruz")...." "On behalf of the Georgian government I want to declare this holiday as a national holiday and from now on this holiday will be marked like any other major Georgian holiday. This is a nationwide Georgian celebration," he said.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cachecZ4ioJooXoJ:www.civil.ge/eng/article.php%3Fid%3D22108+georgia+nowruz&cd=4&hl=en &ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com

Why is every single Georgian celebrating the Persian New Year? (Take a DNA test, and you will find out that you have cousins you didn't know you had.)

5. Well maybe you should try to make your interactions with Iranians in Yerevan to be more than on "the business level." I can guarantee that if you came to Iran, your interactions with Iranians would not be purely on the business level. Moreover, Yerevan is not the only place in the world were Iranians and Armenians interact and I can assure you that elsewhere our relationships are not simply on the "business level," but also on the friendship level; the family level; etc.

6. How you view us, and reality, are two different things: Iran has 4 recognized religions: Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Shia-Muslims are in the official majority - but unofficially I don't know if that's true. Even one of Iran's leading Muslim clerics said every Iranian is 'a little bit Zoroastrian.'

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

IRANIAN-ARMENIAN RELATIONS FOR CENTURIES HAVE BEEN BASED ON HISTORICAL, FAMILY, CULTURAL AND FRIENDLY TIES: ANYONE TRYING TO DIMINISH THESE HISTORICAL TIES IS DOING BOTH A DISSERVICE TO HISTORY & FOOLISH:

[Mos]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

That's 2007 - things are very different now.