Iranian-Armenian relations

[Mos]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

I have said this before, assimilation is Armenia's greatest enemy, along with Turks. Not only does assimilation make Armenians decrease in numbers, but opens to chance to assimilated Armenians defaming the Armenian name by falsely claiming they are Armenians. There are about what half a million Armenians in Canada + USA? Well I assure you, most of those Armenians will assimilate, as very few people can withstand the powerful assimilating force of the American culture. The J3ws have been able to withstand it because their really only tie to their heritage is their religion, doesn't matter what language or even blood, you see J3ws of all backgrounds, the only thing connecting them is a common religion and some basic forms of heritage as a result. For Armenians, it's not as straight forward as there are more elements than just religion that make one Armenian.

The assimilating force of the "American identity" is something that needs to be studied. How well it is able to take one's rich native culture and background and erode that into a monotone, degraded identity. Immigrants often fall prey to this without suspecting. Armenians need to live in Armenian communities, have sole allegiance to Armenia, and visit as often as possible. For Western Armenians it must be even more difficult because they really aren't connected to Republic of Armenia, and thus they must find ways to someway maintain their Armenian heritage without that connection.

[Armanen]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Any Armenian that does not feel a connection to the RoA is doing himself a huge disservice.

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

I have said this before, assimilation is Armenia's greatest enemy ... [it] ...opens to chance to assimilated Armenians defaming the Armenian name by falsely claiming they are Armenians.

The second part of the sentence made me laugh - not because I disagree with you necessarily (I can see why you might think that). But it's funny ... for reasons better left to a new thread before mud gets thrown back-&-forth from 10 different people. (Believe me, I can see it coming.)

Parskahye Are Very Armenian - Who is Armenian in Armenia and why?

Now let's talk about Parskahyes because it's more in the spirit of this thread: I checked with the Department of Biostatistics at Tehran University's School of Medical sciences and they have done a number of studies with the Departments of Biology and Anthropology at the University of Gilan and their own Department of Genetics. As you know, Iranians are fairly preoccupied in keeping records of marriages, religious affiliation, ethnic composition and are one of the oldest civilizations to have kept such data; so, there is a lot of sociological data as well. The School of Medical Sciences has also has done studies on the genetic composition of different groups in Iran. Parskahyes trace back in Iran to at least the 9th century B.C. (when they first appeared in Armenia as a loose confederation of semi-feudal tribes). Armenians regularly intermarried Persian tribes up until the middle of the 4th century A.D. (there was no religious barrier during these years). In other words, from 901 B.C. to 301 A.D. there is absolute confirmation based on anthropological and genetic testing that there is no major genetic difference between Persians (incl. Medes) and Armenians. The findings were based on genetics testing of remains, anthropological data, and historical records. So when one speaks of the bloodline of a "pure Armenian," from the land of Armenia (as opposed to elsewhere in the region), the closest thing to it is a Persian. In terms of genetics, someone like Lucin, as an Iranian-Armenian, is more of a "genetically pure Armenian" (though I hate to use that phrase) than someone from Yerevan. I am also willing to bet that if Lucin (or someone like her) and I took a DNA test, we would be a closer match than if she was tested against someone from Yerevan because the population in Yerevan now includes admixtures of other ethnic groups from the Soviet Republics that are not rooted in Armenia's original history. This leaves open the question of what it means to be an Armenian: Is it bloodline? Language? Adherence to the Armenian Church? (all of the above?)

Nevertheless, someone like Lucin is "one of my people' ... her faith makes no difference to me, even if she decided to be a Buddhist tomorrow.

They did a full study on all of the ethnic/religious groups in Iran. I am going though the rest of the data now as they also did contemporary studies (urban, rural, tribal, and religious groups).

You can request information here if you want it.
Department of Genetics, Tehran University, P.O. Box 14155-6446 Tehran, Iran

[Mos]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

The second part of the sentence made me laugh - not because I disagree with you necessarily (I can see why you might think that). But it's funny ... for reasons better left to a new thread before mud gets thrown back-&-forth from 10 different people. (Believe me, I can see it coming.)

Now let's talk about Parskahyes because it's more in the spirit of this thread: I checked with the Department of Biostatistics at Tehran University's School of Medical sciences and they have done a number of studies with the Departments of Biology and Anthropology at the University of Gilan and their own Department of Genetics. As you know, Iranians are fairly preoccupied in keeping records of marriages, religious affiliation, ethnic composition and are one of the oldest civilizations to have kept such data; so, there is a lot of sociological data as well. The School of Medical Sciences has also has done studies on the genetic composition of different groups in Iran. Parskahyes trace back in Iran to at least the 6th century B.C. (when they first appeared in Armenia as a loose confederation of feudal tribes). Armenians regularly intermarried Persian tribes up until the middle of the 4th century A.D. (there was no religious barrier during these years). In other words, from 501 B.C. to 301 A.D. there is absolute confirmation based on anthropological and genetic testing that there is no major genetic difference between Persians and Armenians. The findings were based on genetics testing of remains, anthropological data, and historical records. So when one speaks of the bloodline of a "pure Armenian," from the land of Armenia (as opposed to elsewhere in the region), the closest thing to it is a Persian. In terms of genetics, someone like Lucin, as an Iranian-Armenian, is more of a "genetically pure Armenian" (though I hate to use that phrase) than someone from Yerevan. I am also willing to bet that if Lucin (or someone like her) and I took a DNA test, we would be a closer match than if she was tested against someone from Yerevan because the population in Yerevan now includes admixtures of other ethnic groups from the Soviet Republics that are not rooted in Armenia's original history. This leaves open the question of what it means to be an Armenian: Is it bloodline? Language? Adherence to the Armenian Church? (all of the above?)

Nevertheless, someone like Lucin is "one of my people' ... her faith makes no difference to me, even if she decided to be a Buddhist tomorrow.

They did a full study on all of the ethnic/religious groups in Iran. I am going though the rest of the data now as they also did contemporary studies.

You can request information here if you want it.
Department of Genetics, Tehran University, P.O. Box 14155-6446 Tehran, Iran

First off, I don't think some intermixing in 2 or 3rd century AD is really meaningful in describing the genetic nature of a people. Every group has intermixed with its neighbours, that's only natural, though Armenians have been known to be rather insular when it came to this, and we emphasised on marrying within our group. Part of the reason for our survival also. Second, there isn't really a big genetic difference between Armenians of Armenia, and Iranian Armenians. The inter ethnic Soviet marriages haven't been that much, and have only been recent, so it can't really affect genetic profile. This is a very good academic article on Armenian Genetics, I recommend you read it: http://d2q2w7ps6xs5vp.cloudfront.net...3/R3775363.jpg

What it means to be Armenian? Well, a firm cultural connection to the Armenian culture and nation, a knowledge of the language, and having a Armenian Christian identity, (doesn't require for you to be really religious) but adhere to the traditions of the Church, as this is one of the most important elements to our identity. Without the Armenian Church, there would be no "Armenians" today. God Bless our Christian Roots.

As I said, we are rather insular, so a person with French or Iranian blood can't really become Armenian. We aren't like Turks or Americans, who have a more encompassing identity, being Armenian in my view is also contingent on having Armenian family (and thus bloodline).

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

First off, I don't think some intermixing in 2 or 3rd century AD is really meaningful.

You missed the point here ... up until the 4th century the mixing was without religious barriers (free love fest) and it continued thereafter (but as you know religion sometimes complicates things). Gilaks were determined to be the most pure of Aryan people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilaki_people

[Eddo211]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

Persia cultural influence extended further east than your map highlights. However Parthia was inhabited by Semitic pastoralist types and the Persia empire only really had a Indo-Iranic elite. What is more, Persia was knocked over by many invaders and it is now basically a Turko-Persian entity. Which is why Persian loan words make up 40% of Usbek and you only have to scratch the Turk to find the Persian.



ParskaHyes may well have admixed with Iranians. However Orthodox Christians on the whole, tend to be very close knit and on the whole I'd say that they seldom admix with other peoples. I am not a Armenian though and you would need to ask them.

Armenians have close affiliations to the Assyrians and to a lesser extent, the Georgians and Greeks. Armenian is also a independent Indo-European branch, that has borrowings from more ancient Anatolian languages. So Armenians aren't Indo-Iranics or of 'Persia stock'.

Agreed with everything you said. Also Iranian Armenians only mixed with other Armenians (past, present, future), including survivors of AG escaping to Iran at the time. Ancient nobility marriages were comon for political reasons.

We are the Armenians.......nothing else.

We were much closer to Assyrians before Persia was even a factor.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

This leaves open the question of what it means to be an Armenian: Is it bloodline? Language? Adherence to the Armenian Church? (all of the above?)

It's simply being raised by Armenians, in an Armenian household, exposed to the Armenian culture and adopting a certain mindset.

Think about how fragmented the diaspora has become, Armenians have practically gone their separate ways for a century now. An Armenian from Iraq is more Arabic than Armenian. An Armenian from France is more French than Armenian. Now, add to the effects of living under Communism, Socialism, Capitalism, etc. and what you've got is a puzzle that will take a long time to piece back together. However if a 50% Armenian finds another 50% Armenian, and they strengthen each other's culture and get involved in rediscovering their heritage, there is a lot of hope in reversing the fragmentation (sort of like defragmenting a Hard Drive).

[Mos]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

We are also naturally also close to Georgians which have lived near us as Christian people for ages (thus less barrier for intermixing). Though, Georgians are really an offshoot of Armenian tribes that were living in the area.

@Persepolis, Iranian-Armenian intermixing sharply decline with the religious barrier, coupled with the fact that Armenians were inherently an insular people.

[Mos]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

It's simply being raised by Armenians, in an Armenian household, exposed to the Armenian culture and adopting a certain mindset.

Think about how fragmented the diaspora has become, Armenians have practically gone their separate ways for a century now. An Armenian from Iraq is more Arabic than Armenian. An Armenian from France is more French than Armenian. Now, add to the effects of living under Communism, Socialism, Capitalism, etc. and what you've got is a puzzle that will take a long time to piece back together. However if a 50% Armenian finds another 50% Armenian, and they strengthen each other's culture and get involved in rediscovering their heritage, there is a lot of hope in reversing the fragmentation (sort of like defragmenting a Hard Drive).

I agree with this. The large diaspora has been a huge challenge with the Armenian identity. In my opinion, Armenian identity should be tied to the homeland of Armenia, because that is the country and continuation of the Armenian nation, despite living in Lebanon or France, Armenians should tie themselves firstly to Armenia.

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

It's simply being raised by Armenians, in an Armenian household, exposed to the Armenian culture and adopting a certain mindset.

Think about how fragmented the diaspora has become, Armenians have practically gone their separate ways for a century now. An Armenian from Iraq is more Arabic than Armenian. An Armenian from France is more French than Armenian. Now, add to the effects of living under Communism, Socialism, Capitalism, etc. and what you've got is a puzzle that will take a long time to piece back together. However if a 50% Armenian finds another 50% Armenian, and they strengthen each other's culture and get involved in rediscovering their heritage, there is a lot of hope in reversing the fragmentation (sort of like defragmenting a Hard Drive).

This made the most sense of everything I read.