Prospects of a Kurdish state and what it means for Armenia

[Armanen]

Re: Prospects of a Kurdish state and what it means for Armenia

It doesn't matter whether they helped them or not. What matters is what our national intentions were, and the requirement for such intentions is that they are supported by the majority of the Kurds. These Hamidiye-irregulars did not belong to the Kurdish nationalist curriculum, and acted solely for the Turks. In this context, the term 'Kurd' should only be used to designate their ethnicity, and is should not be handled in a manner as if they represented the Kurdish nation. The fact that some Kurds gave them shelter supports this, so due to the heavy ideological fragmentation of the time, it is unjust to hold the present-day Kurds responsible for these atrocities. We owe you nothing.




It's our historic land too. If your nationalist perception of history is a reason to ridicule my nation, then you are a condemnable person.




Facts? Let me get some 'facts' straight. You migrated to this region from the north-Caucasus around 700 BC, after which you assimilated the Urartians, who were living in Pontus and the southern Caucasus. As opposed to complete extinguishment of the Urartians by the Armenians, the Hurrians, who were living in most of what you refer to as 'western Armenia', gradually evolved into Kurds throughout Iranic interposition that occured around the same time. Considering that the Armenians posess an Urartian, and not Hurrian substratum, it is plausible that the Urartu kingdom(which you idolize so much) was established through violence and brutal extermination, because it annexed Hurrian lands. From a Kurdish perspective, this does not justify Armenian claim over eastern anatolia. The 'Armenian Highland' is just a designation of the region by pro-Armenian(western) entities.




No, what you define as your 'ancestral land' was heavily fragmented prior to the genocide, and it's difficult to determine Armenia's boundairies. But surely overlapped ancient Kurdish land, and any self-proclaimed Kurdish nationalist will hasten to keep you out.




Very funny. It's still sad that you arrogantly keep underestimating the importance that Northern Kurdistan has for us, and the level of intellectuality we'll enhance it with.

You can go peddle your pseudo history somewhere else. You claim kurds are evolved from Hurrians, when it is commonly known that kurds are an Iranic peoples. Even the Iranic theory has come under fire from certain academic circles. What is known about kurds is that they have never had a functioning kingdom, empire, or republic. What does that tell you about the people?

Urartu was the Assyrian name for the Armenian kingdom of Ararat. Armenians did not assimilate the Urartuians, Armenians were Urartuians and existed prior to it as well. I suggest you check out the site listed in my signature if you're truly interested in learning. Otherwise siktir!

[Lucin]

Re: Prospects of a Kurdish state and what it means for Armenia

Bell after reading these and others of yours I've got a request to make. Can you make a list of what in your opinion are the best books on Armenian history? Starting from the beginning till now.
I hope the rest of the members will join in as well and contribute.

Karo jan, humor es anum? Odar@ mez hyots patmutyan grkeri arajark ani?

[kurdman]

Re: Prospects of a Kurdish state and what it means for Armenia

The average "Kurd on the street" in Turkey will often tell you that the Kurds are descendants of the Medes. I don't know whether this is some modern invention to give Kurds a longer and more glorious history, or if it is perhaps derived from the medieval Armenian chroniclers often referring to the Kurds as "Mar" (they also used the word "Mar" for real Medians). See V. Minorsky, Studies in Caucasian History, p127. The same Armenian manuscript about alphabets in which the lost alphabet of the Caucasian Albanians was famously rediscovered also contained an example of "the language of the Medians (Mar)". Minorsky describes it as "a prayer in Kurdish". I wonder what alphabet it was written in?

We are for the most part descendants of the medes, however as I stated, the medes conquered the local people whom are also our ancestors.

[Artsakh]

Re: Prospects of a Kurdish state and what it means for Armenia

STOP IT!

This isn't a thread about the origins of Kurds or Armenians.

All you people who are saying the Kurds took part in the killings of Armenians, and therefore we shouldn't collaborate with them on any matters are emotional, immature, and politically naieve. Politics has always allowed for strange bedfellows, that's the nature of the dirty game of politics. If we follow your logic, we shouldn't have relations with the Iranians (who drove our compatriots like sheep from their homeland AND who still occupy historial armenian lands), we shouldn't deal with the Russians (who cut a deal with the Turks and sold off Historial Armenia along with Mount Ararat) and many more examples.

For those of you who can't understand the simple fact that Turkey is the greatest threat facing Armenia, and that that threat must be dealt a serious blow, then you have no idea about the dangers facing Armenia, then you are as naieve as dirty.
It is Turkey who is behind all the plans to isolate Armenia. It is Turkey's plan to suffocate and squeez Armenia through blockade.

Greek, Armenian and Kurdish lobbies have collaborated in their anti-Turkish activities in the US. The same can take place in battle to liberate lands. We have a common interest with the Kurds: territorial issues against the Turks. It doesn't matter that Kurds in the past took part iin the killing of Armenians. This is an immature argument that any serious person understand politics would laugh at. We don't love the kurds, neither are the kurds crazy about us, but for our own best sake, we've got no choice but to collaborate until the monster is taken out.

There's no need to remind you: it's turks occupying western Armenia today, NOT the Kurds. It's Turks waging and funding a denial campaign against the Armenian Genocide, NOT Kurds. In fact, Kurds have come out, appologized, and acknoweleged the Genocide.

Kurds are not a puppet. Kurds are a national and are guided by national interests just like any other. That their and the west's interests coincide does not mean they're puppets.

To the contrary. In the long-term, Kurds could proove to become serious allies. It is no secret that Iran has long term interests in the caucasus as it always has had throughout history. They ultimately hope to bring the caucasus under their authority, including Armenia, azerabijaan, and possibly georgia. Knowning that Iran does have such an interest in the region which is undeniable, sometime in the future current strategic partner iran may become a enemy.

politics changes all the time, you never know. But what is certain is that Turkey is a great threat, and that threat was be dealt a serious blow and minimized.

[kurdman]

Re: Prospects of a Kurdish state and what it means for Armenia

Today we have a trade volume of $8 billion with Iran, tomorrow we might have a war...

[kurdman]

Re: Prospects of a Kurdish state and what it means for Armenia

Yes, it's amazing what an absence of American bombs and missiles (but a plentyfull supply of American dollars) will do for the appearance of a city.

Erm, more like a very friendly investment law, and our business teams going around the world to attract investors.

[kurdman]

Re: Prospects of a Kurdish state and what it means for Armenia

STOP IT!

This isn't a thread about the origins of Kurds or Armenians.

All you people who are saying the Kurds took part in the killings of Armenians, and therefore we shouldn't collaborate with them on any matters are emotional, immature, and politically naieve. Politics has always allowed for strange bedfellows, that's the nature of the dirty game of politics. If we follow your logic, we shouldn't have relations with the Iranians (who drove our compatriots like sheep from their homeland AND who still occupy historial armenian lands), we shouldn't deal with the Russians (who cut a deal with the Turks and sold off Historial Armenia along with Mount Ararat) and many more examples.

For those of you who can't understand the simple fact that Turkey is the greatest threat facing Armenia, and that that threat must be dealt a serious blow, then you have no idea about the dangers facing Armenia, then you are as naieve as dirty.
It is Turkey who is behind all the plans to isolate Armenia. It is Turkey's plan to suffocate and squeez Armenia through blockade.

Greek, Armenian and Kurdish lobbies have collaborated in their anti-Turkish activities in the US. The same can take place in battle to liberate lands. We have a common interest with the Kurds: territorial issues against the Turks. It doesn't matter that Kurds in the past took part iin the killing of Armenians. This is an immature argument that any serious person understand politics would laugh at. We don't love the kurds, neither are the kurds crazy about us, but for our own best sake, we've got no choice but to collaborate until the monster is taken out.

There's no need to remind you: it's turks occupying western Armenia today, NOT the Kurds. It's Turks waging and funding a denial campaign against the Armenian Genocide, NOT Kurds. In fact, Kurds have come out, appologized, and acknoweleged the Genocide.

Kurds are not a puppet. Kurds are a national and are guided by national interests just like any other. That their and the west's interests coincide does not mean they're puppets.

To the contrary. In the long-term, Kurds could proove to become serious allies. It is no secret that Iran has long term interests in the caucasus as it always has had throughout history. They ultimately hope to bring the caucasus under their authority, including Armenia, azerabijaan, and possibly georgia. Knowning that Iran does have such an interest in the region which is undeniable, sometime in the future current strategic partner iran may become a enemy.

politics changes all the time, you never know. But what is certain is that Turkey is a great threat, and that threat was be dealt a serious blow and minimized.

Finally someone that understands politics.

[Mos]

Re: Prospects of a Kurdish state and what it means for Armenia

@Artsakh,

Should we collaborate with Turks if we have a temporary common interest? I don't understand how we cannot forget the betrayal of the Kurds for some meagre Turkish blood money. How can you trust them? How can you ensure that they won't stab you in the back like they did to your ancestors? What Iranians did or what Russians have maybe done with the Turks recently, cannot be compared to the Genocide of Armenians and the fact that Kurds physically participated in exterminating the Armenian population from its native homeland. I will always favour Kurds over Turks, but I will never support overtly supporting or trusting Kurds.

Of course Turkey is our biggest threat (next to Azerbaijan) but we shouldn't put ourselves in more danger because of that. Trust the Kurds is dangerous, and I have no doubt they will stab us in the back right after they have accomplished their own national goals. Let the Kurds and Turks go at each other, let the former genocidal buddies kill each other.

[Artsakh]

Re: Prospects of a Kurdish state and what it means for Armenia

@Artsakh,

Should we collaborate with Turks if we have a temporary common interest? I don't understand how we cannot forget the betrayal of the Kurds for some meagre Turkish blood money. How can you trust them? How can you ensure that they won't stab you in the back like they did to your ancestors? What Iranians did or what Russians have maybe done with the Turks recently, cannot be compared to the Genocide of Armenians and the fact that Kurds physically participated in exterminating the Armenian population from its native homeland. I will always favour Kurds over Turks, but I will never support overtly supporting or trusting Kurds.

Of course Turkey is our biggest threat (next to Azerbaijan) but we shouldn't put ourselves in more danger because of that. Trust the Kurds is dangerous, and I have no doubt they will stab us in the back right after they have accomplished their own national goals. Let the Kurds and Turks go at each other, let the former genocidal buddies kill each other.

give me a for instance, because I can't imagine any scenario where Turks could possibly ally themselves with Armenians, or vica versa. Perhaps if aliens come down to earth like in that movie "independence day" and threatened the existance of both armenians and turks could i see them forming an alliance. other than that, i cant see it.

it's not about "trusting" the kurds. Why don't you think if it like this: we'll use the kurds to advantage. If it's against Turkish interests, then i support it. Turkey can't suppress the kurds eternally. One day theyll carve out a piece of "turkey" for their own.

As regards "Azerbaijan," "Azerbaijan" in and of itself is the equivalent of nothingness. The only reason "Azerbaijan" is of any significance is because it has the full, unconditional backing of Turkey, diplomatic and military. It is Turkey who is behind all of the provocations by the Azeri side, it is Turkey who has linked "establishment of diplomatic ties" to the "solution of Karabakh conflict favorable to Azerbaijan."

[Artsakh]

Re: Prospects of a Kurdish state and what it means for Armenia

For the record: I'm no fan of michael rubin, and the idiot appearently doesn't know that Turkey has established no diplomatic ties with Armenia, but look at the essence of it. Turkey is proving itself as unreliable, and the pro-israel media is attacking it. Kurds are going to replace turkey as allies for israel in the middle east, and there's going to be a big reward for them in return.

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It's time for Turkey to end its occupation of Iraqi Kurdistanby Michael Rubin
The Kurdistan Tribune
May 28, 2011

http://www.michaelrubin.org/9680/turkey-occupation-iraqi-kurdistan

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Under the leadership of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and Foreign Minister Ahmet Davatoğlu, Turkey has pursued a policy of good relations with all its neighbors. Well, almost.

It has de-mined its border with Syria, tripled trade with Iran, established diplomatic relations with Armenia and reduced its military activities in the Aegean Sea in order to ameliorate Greece. Yet, while Ankara often rebuffs Western concerns about its increasingly warm relations with Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, and Hamas with reference to its desire to have no problems with its neighbors, Turkey inexplicably has taken no action to end its more than two decade-long occupation of Iraqi Kurdistan.

Certainly, Turkey withdrew its Peace Monitoring Force component from Erbil in 2004, years after the Kurdish civil war ended, but the Turks continue to maintain armed outposts and camps in Amadiya, Bamerne, Sheladiz and Kani Masi. Such a presence is an affront both to Iraqi sovereignty and to Iraqi Kurdistan.

Kurds should not let Turkish diplomats and politicians simply blame the Turkish military or "Deep State." Erdoğan and his allies have dominated Turkish politics long enough and have overruled Turkish military concerns elsewhere. Where there is a will, there is a way. Nor does the Kurdish terrorist threat Turkey cites justify maintaining bases: After all, Erdoğan has made clear in Gaza and elsewhere that cross-border terrorism does not justify military occupation.

Masud Barzani, president of the Kurdistan Region, does Iraqi Kurdistan no favors by staking a tough position in the Iraqi Kurdish media, but being quite conciliatory toward the Turks during his visits to Washington and Ankara. If the Kurdish leadership were to demand forcefully that Turkish forces leave Iraqi territory, they might find themselves successful. At the very least, they would remind the international community that Turkey is not the peacemaker it claims to be. Perhaps the call could be taken up by the significant Kurdish communities in Sweden, Germany, and elsewhere in Europe. If Turkey wishes to join Europe or simply have diplomatic credibility in the region, it must end its occupation in Iraqi Kurdistan now.

Related Topics: Iraq, Kurds, Turkey