Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

[Vrej1915]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

I am surprised you are asking that question.
International banks make ( a lot of) money by financing different governments and regimes without any scruples.
If war breaks out nothing in this relationship changes, except make more money.
Hitler was financed by US bankers, the name of the grand father of President Bush (junior) stands out.
When war broke out this relationship was not abandoned as long as money could be made.
Who won the war did not matter because assets could still be got after the war in exchange for the loans ( maybe even cheaper).

Incidentally the (financial) relationship between Bin Laden and President Bush well after 9/11 is documented.



How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power
http://www.theguardian.com/world/200...secondworldwar

I am surprised by your response...
I specially mentioned "VITAL/EXISTENTIAL INTERESTS of the UK"......
I may know slightly more than you may think about US /Reich trade than you may think.... beginning from Du Pont de Nemours/Bush/Kennedy father.... to Mr Lindberg.
But as I first said, the comparison was odd.
But assuming we do compare:
If we do have to, then what the US did to the UK would be translated in our situation by Russia selling knives, or at worst some rubber tires to Baku.....

Or else, on the other versus, If we have to compare what the Russians did ore doing to us, to UK/US, then it will be like the US selling 30.000 flighing fortresses to Hitler, while giving 100 WWI era biplanes to the UK, or else, the US forcing the UK to give the Kent and Sussex to the III Reich....., Scotland to Austria....

Did something like that ever happened???

[Vrej1915]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

I am surprised by your response...
I specially mentioned "VITAL/EXISTENTIAL INTERESTS of the UK"......
I may know slightly more than you may think about US /Reich trade than you may think.... beginning from Du Pont de Nemours/Bush/Kennedy father.... to Mr Lindberg.
But as I first said, the comparison was odd.
But assuming we do compare:
If we do have to, then what the US did to the UK would be translated in our situation by Russia selling knives, or at worst some rubber tires to Baku.....

Or else, on the other versus, If we have to compare what the Russians did ore doing to us, to UK/US, then it will be like the US selling 30.000 flighing fortresses to Hitler, while giving 100 WWI era biplanes to the UK, or else, the US forcing the UK to give the Kent and Sussex to the III Reich....., Scotland to Austria....

Did something like that ever happened???

-------
Of course Austria was part of the reich, but to compare the incoparable, that's what I think of to compare Turkey/Azerbaijan identity...
Of course, I forgot to mention Wales to Mussolini.....

Yet again, to compare the arms, I used as comparison the strategic value of what 30 K B 17 would have represented to the 5 billion arms shipment to Baku, compared to the rusting oldies we are getting for WWI Airomarine Flying Boat trainers....

As you need references, let me dare theese...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-17_Flying_Fortress

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=713

------

Once again, I do addmitt this comparison is odd and senseless, but I assume your logic

[londontsi]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

-------
Of course Austria was part of the reich, but to compare the incoparable, that's what I think of to compare Turkey/Azerbaijan identity...
Of course, I forgot to mention Wales to Mussolini.....

Yet again, to compare the arms, I used as comparison the strategic value of what 30 K B 17 would have represented to the 5 billion arms shipment to Baku, compared to the rusting oldies we are getting for WWI Airomarine Flying Boat trainers....

As you need references, let me dare theese...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-17_Flying_Fortress

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=713

------

Once again, I do addmitt this comparison is odd and senseless, but I assume your logic

I think you have been brainwashed that the West is good and Russia is bad.

Its evident the way you are nit-picking the issues.

The fact is where there is war or even tense conflict there is money to be made.

To the merchants of death money is more desirable than peace and lives.

Probing to see who is has moral high ground is an oxymoronic endeavour.

I will give you another example, the Arab Israeli conflict.

The US has supplied both sides for nearly 50 years or more.
Very skilfully without allowing a war to occur but successfully milking the Arab world of their finances.

In fact no war occurred while the US was supplying both sides.

War did happen when Russia was supplying one side and the US the other side.

I am upset that Russia is supplying arms to Azerbaijan.
However I will start worrying when a country other than Russia supplies arms to Azerbaijan.
I have in mind wholesale like the Russians did to the Egyptians.

.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

I think you have been brainwashed that the West is good and Russia is bad.

Its evident the way you are nit-picking the issues.

The fact is where there is war or even tense conflict there is money to be made.

To the merchants of death money is more desirable than peace and lives.

Probing to see who is has moral high ground is an oxymoronic endeavour.

I will give you another example, the Arab Israeli conflict.

The US has supplied both sides for nearly 50 years or more.
Very skilfully without allowing a war to occur but successfully milking the Arab world of their finances.

In fact no war occurred while the US was supplying both sides.

War did happen when Russia was supplying one side and the US the other side.

I am upset that Russia is supplying arms to Azerbaijan.
However I will start worrying when a country other than Russia supplies arms to Azerbaijan.
I have in mind wholesale like the Russians did to the Egyptians.

.

1- Thank you for the brainwash my Dear.
I now wait for any of my statements saying West, or any other party is good....???

2- Once again, in place of admitting the odd in your extraordinary comparison, you bring an other one, more 'khelki mod'. So lets assume your new comparison :
- The US never sold anything slightly dangerous to its strategic ally to anyone. If not, please feel free to disclose novelties for me.
- The US did not sell, even slightly similar stratetgic equipment, to anyone in the whole ME. Nor Nuclear arms, nor civil nuclear technology (no one, even Israely ally Turkey was not provided this technology by the US in the whole ME).
- The US did not sell anything High Tech, last generation, apart might be to Turkey, again in the ME. (Drones, F35, long range ballistic....)
- The US does not sell , at least officially, even "knives", to anyone, remotedly dangerous for its strategic ally.
- The only states that did receive anything by far harmless technology, are the ones who are in fact peacefull, or allied to Israel. (Gulf states, Egypt, Jordan)

.... do I need to elaborate more?

[Vrej1915]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

«Եթե պատերազմ լինի, Ռուսաստանը կկորցնի և մեր երկիրը, և Ադրբեջանը» (տեսանյութ)
Սեպտեմբեր 11,2015

http://www.a1plus.am/1404980.html

Վերջին տարիներին ադրբեջանական բանակի սպառազինությունը որակապես փոխվում է։ «Ադրբեջանն ավելացնում է զենքի գնումը, և այժմ արդեն հրետանի են կիրառում։ Սա մտահոգիչ է։ Սակայն պետք է նշեմ, որ ռազմատեխնիկական բալանսը պահպանվում է»,-կարծում է քաղաքագետ Սերգեյ Մինասյանը։ Թեև Ադրբեջանը դեռ 90-ականներից ավելի մեծ քանակի զենք է ստացել Ռուսաստանից, քան Հայաստանը, սակայն ներկայումս մեր երկրին ռուսական կողմն արտոնյալ պայմաններով է ռազմական տեխնիկա վաճառում։

Քաղաքագետը շեշտեց, որ այս իրավիճակը լիովին ձեռնտու է Ռուսաստանին, քանի որ այս կերպ նա կարողանում է ազդեցությունը պահպանել երկու երկրների վրա։

Հարցին, թե Ռուսաստանը նույն կերպ շարունակելո՞ւ է իրեն դրսևորել հնարավոր պատերազմի դեպքում, պարոն Մինասյանն ասաց. «Այդ դեպքում Ռուսաստանը նախ ի վիճակի չի լինի խուսափել ներգրավվածությունից։ Իսկ եթե որոշի խուսափել, դա իր համար կունենա լուրջ աշխարհաքաղաքական գին։ Քանի որ այնտեղ շատ լավ հասկանում են, որ ռուսական ռազմակայանը, որը ենթադրում է հայաստանյան սահմանների պաշտպանություն, մեր երկրի համար կարևոր է, քանի դեռ այն պաշտպանում է Թուրքիայի և Ադրբեջանի կողմից հնարավոր ոտնձգություններից»։

Իսկ եթե ռուսական կողմը դա չանի՞. «Պատերազմն ինչ ընթացք էլ որ ունենա, Ռուսաստանը կկորցնի Հայաստանը, նաև ռազմակայանը մեր երկրի տարածքում, որովհետև այլևս կարիքը չենք ունենա այդ ռազմական ներկայության։ Նրանք միշտ խուսափում են կտրուկ պատասխանից այն առումով, թե ինչ են անելու, բայց միշտ նշում են, որ անելու են ամեն ինչ, որպեսզի ռազմական գործողությունները չվերսկսվեն»,-եզրափակեց քաղաքագետը։

[londontsi]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

1- Thank you for the brainwash my Dear.
I now wait for any of my statements saying West, or any other party is good....???

2- Once again, in place of admitting the odd in your extraordinary comparison, you bring an other one, more 'khelki mod'. So lets assume your new comparison :
- The US never sold anything slightly dangerous to its strategic ally to anyone. If not, please feel free to disclose novelties for me.
- The US did not sell, even slightly similar stratetgic equipment, to anyone in the whole ME. Nor Nuclear arms, nor civil nuclear technology (no one, even Israely ally Turkey was not provided this technology by the US in the whole ME).
- The US did not sell anything High Tech, last generation, apart might be to Turkey, again in the ME. (Drones, F35, long range ballistic....)
- The US does not sell , at least officially, even "knives", to anyone, remotedly dangerous for its strategic ally.
- The only states that did receive anything by far harmless technology, are the ones who are in fact peacefull, or allied to Israel. (Gulf states, Egypt, Jordan)

.... do I need to elaborate more?

I am afraid you are making too many selective points or are not aware of the facts.

The west and specifically the US has made huge amounts of weaponry sales to the Arab world.
I am including Saudi Arabia and Egypt whose military forces are paid for by the US, including salaries and material.

They may not be dangerous at this point to Israel but Israel has raised concerns in the past.
Who knows what regime change happens down the line.

However I mentioned in my earlier post that if the weapon supplier controls both clients it will do its utmost to avoid war,
because as a result it could loose one if not both clients.

And I repeat the US has played this game for over 50 years very successfully.

Russia is doing the same having learned a few tricks.

Again for me alarm bells will ring when Armenia and Azerbaijan are being armed by different interests wholesale.

.

[Hakob]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

«Եթե պատերազմ լինի, Ռուսաստանը կկորցնի և մեր երկիրը, և Ադրբեջանը» (տեսանյութ)
Սեպտեմբեր 11,2015

http://www.a1plus.am/1404980.html

Վերջին տարիներին ադրբեջանական բանակի սպառազինությունը որակապես փոխվում է։ «Ադրբեջանն ավելացնում է զենքի գնումը, և այժմ արդեն հրետանի են կիրառում։ Սա մտահոգիչ է։ Սակայն պետք է նշեմ, որ ռազմատեխնիկական բալանսը պահպանվում է»,-կարծում է քաղաքագետ Սերգեյ Մինասյանը։ Թեև Ադրբեջանը դեռ 90-ականներից ավելի մեծ քանակի զենք է ստացել Ռուսաստանից, քան Հայաստանը, սակայն ներկայումս մեր երկրին ռուսական կողմն արտոնյալ պայմաններով է ռազմական տեխնիկա վաճառում։

Քաղաքագետը շեշտեց, որ այս իրավիճակը լիովին ձեռնտու է Ռուսաստանին, քանի որ այս կերպ նա կարողանում է ազդեցությունը պահպանել երկու երկրների վրա։

Հարցին, թե Ռուսաստանը նույն կերպ շարունակելո՞ւ է իրեն դրսևորել հնարավոր պատերազմի դեպքում, պարոն Մինասյանն ասաց. «Այդ դեպքում Ռուսաստանը նախ ի վիճակի չի լինի խուսափել ներգրավվածությունից։ Իսկ եթե որոշի խուսափել, դա իր համար կունենա լուրջ աշխարհաքաղաքական գին։ Քանի որ այնտեղ շատ լավ հասկանում են, որ ռուսական ռազմակայանը, որը ենթադրում է հայաստանյան սահմանների պաշտպանություն, մեր երկրի համար կարևոր է, քանի դեռ այն պաշտպանում է Թուրքիայի և Ադրբեջանի կողմից հնարավոր ոտնձգություններից»։

Իսկ եթե ռուսական կողմը դա չանի՞. «Պատերազմն ինչ ընթացք էլ որ ունենա, Ռուսաստանը կկորցնի Հայաստանը, նաև ռազմակայանը մեր երկրի տարածքում, որովհետև այլևս կարիքը չենք ունենա այդ ռազմական ներկայության։ Նրանք միշտ խուսափում են կտրուկ պատասխանից այն առումով, թե ինչ են անելու, բայց միշտ նշում են, որ անելու են ամեն ինչ, որպեսզի ռազմական գործողությունները չվերսկսվեն»,-եզրափակեց քաղաքագետը։

It is entirely true. If Russia signals strong support for Armenia, then it risks Azeri side into looking for alternative main supplies and supporter for them. At the same time Azerbaijan does not need Russia as much as we do. It has more choices and means to maneuver.
Armenia on the other hand has just about no choice but to rely on Russia, as long as no other power has become so invested in this area other than Russia.
Russians know that alarming or angering Armenia a great deal by consorting with Baku has almost no bad consequence unless the core purpose of Russo Armenian alliance is defeated, that is, loss of Artsakh or Turkish invasion of sorts.
So that leaves a lot of room to play with Azerbaijan. Sell them whatever they want and generally close eyes on their "little military adventures against Armenia". As long as Azeris don't push things out of hand.
For aliev clan, there can be no better partner than Russia, despite Azeri natural drive towards their kin turkey and to their business partners in west. This is because Alievs know that while Russia protects its friends in Baku and does not like government changes, the first western move after gaining big leverage in Azerbaijan would be to remove this clan from power in order to gain more economic leverage (less corruption).

[UrMistake]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

It is entirely true. If Russia signals strong support for Armenia, then it risks Azeri side into looking for alternative main supplies and supporter for them. At the same time Azerbaijan does not need Russia as much as we do. It has more choices and means to maneuver.
Armenia on the other hand has just about no choice but to rely on Russia, as long as no other power has become so invested in this area other than Russia.
Russians know that alarming or angering Armenia a great deal by consorting with Baku has almost no bad consequence unless the core purpose of Russo Armenian alliance is defeated, that is, loss of Artsakh or Turkish invasion of sorts.
So that leaves a lot of room to play with Azerbaijan. Sell them whatever they want and generally close eyes on their "little military adventures against Armenia". As long as Azeris don't push things out of hand.
For aliev clan, there can be no better partner than Russia, despite Azeri natural drive towards their kin turkey and to their business partners in west. This is because Alievs know that while Russia protects its friends in Baku and does not like government changes, any western move would be to remove this clan from power in order to gain more economic leverage (less corruption).

Hakop jan i agree with your theory .

[Serjik]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

I am happy haykakan is not the only one here with a brain anymore. I really like the way you analyze realpolitic hagop. realpolitic is something Armenians dont get because we are a emotional people. You cant be emotional in politics, I learned this the hard way myself.

It is entirely true. If Russia signals strong support for Armenia, then it risks Azeri side into looking for alternative main supplies and supporter for them. At the same time Azerbaijan does not need Russia as much as we do. It has more choices and means to maneuver. Armenia on the other hand has just about no choice but to rely on Russia, as long as no other power has become so invested in this area other than Russia. Russians know that alarming or angering Armenia a great deal by consorting with Baku has almost no bad consequence unless the core purpose of Russo Armenian alliance is defeated, that is, loss of Artsakh or Turkish invasion of sorts. So that leaves a lot of room to play with Azerbaijan. Sell them whatever they want and generally close eyes on their "little military adventures against Armenia". As long as Azeris don't push things out of hand. For aliev clan, there can be no better partner than Russia, despite Azeri natural drive towards their kin turkey and to their business partners in west. This is because Alievs know that while Russia protects its friends in Baku and does not like government changes, the first western move after gaining big leverage in Azerbaijan would be to remove this clan from power in order to gain more economic leverage (less corruption).

[Vrej1915]

Re: Russians will manage, what they do best: turn their friends into enemies....

I am afraid you are making too many selective points or are not aware of the facts.

The west and specifically the US has made huge amounts of weaponry sales to the Arab world.
I am including Saudi Arabia and Egypt whose military forces are paid for by the US, including salaries and material.

They may not be dangerous at this point to Israel but Israel has raised concerns in the past.
Who knows what regime change happens down the line.

However I mentioned in my earlier post that if the weapon supplier controls both clients it will do its utmost to avoid war,
because as a result it could loose one if not both clients.

And I repeat the US has played this game for over 50 years very successfully.

Russia is doing the same having learned a few tricks.

Again for me alarm bells will ring when Armenia and Azerbaijan are being armed by different interests wholesale.

.

Once again, let us be specific:
What specific arm type was given to any enemy of Israel, which might have slightly endangered the existence of Israel? Should I remind you that Russia is not selling to Kazakstan (to try to find equivalent of Saouds, now day 'ally' , but potential enemy??), but to one enemy who is actually firing on us everyday...
When?
Did Israel not have 10 times that type of armement, and much more modern?

Let us just know this... then we will discuss the rest.

The bias in your statement is: peace is not insured by balance, but by overwhelming disbalance of supplies to one and only one strategic ally, in a given configuration.
It's a bit different, isn't it?

Concerning Egypt. It's so obvious, I do not need to discuss.
Egypt received its first pistol, after flat capitulation, and forced alliance with Israel....
None of their F-16 can ever fly, without an OK from Jerusalem....

So be specific.
It doesn't hurt.
Prove your point , even on details, then your hypothesis might be credible.