Liberation of Western Armenia

[haysip]

A New Plan?

An idea has been going around lately about western Armenia. The idea is not to root for the whole Western Armenia. Only root for lands that will connect us to the Black Sea. As you guys know, we are completely depended on Georgia. If we can get access to the sea then we can easily solve the problem of Javakhk and response to Georgian bullsh**. Armenia's economy will boost in no time(we don't need EU). The problem is, what about Van, Adana..., and how is turkey gonna give those lands back?
In my opinion, if we talk to the turks on getting those lands back, and in return we will take off the pressure of the Genocide from other countries(US) recognizing it. Then later(within 50 yrs), we will take back western Armenia through force or something. This is an incomplete & flexible idea. Let me know what you guys think and give ideas if u guys have any.

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[Federate]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

I redirected your post to this relevant thread haysip. If you check the numerous pages before, you'll see many ideas about the liberation of Western Armenia.

[SevSpitak]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

I think Western Armenia is really not something we can do. Unlike Artsakh, Armenians haven't been present in Western Armenia for almost 100 years. And the world has seen exponential development this past 100 years over all of history combined. In other words, Armenians have been absent from the region at the most crucial time in history. Our absence there in the 20th century alone is heavier than our presence there for the +40 centuries that preceded.

The only way WA could exist, in my honest opinion, is if it becomes the next Israel, and the only way to trigger this now is to get the entire world to recognize the reason why there are no Armenians in Western Armenia — the Armenian Genocide. Turkey would be forced to pay compensations, in money or land. Even if this happens, I highly doubt that we'd get the whole of the territory we claim, and even less past the Pontic Mountains (Trebizon, Black Sea coast), since those territories were hardly inhabited by Armenians, and have only been part of the territory of Armenia during at the treaty of Sèvres (even Tigran II didn't conquer the Black Sea coast). Some say our limit will be Kars and maybe Ardahan and Igdir. I'd doubt Turkey would let Igdir go by any means since it's their only border with Azerbaijan (through Nakhichevan).

Kurds have 99.9% more chance of getting their hands on it than us. Alternatively to its liberation, when/if the Kurds get their state in Eastern and Southeastern Anatolia, through a deal with the Kurds, part of Western Armenia can be ceded to Armenia (like the insignificant, unpopulated, Ani). We might even get a path all the way to Mt. Ararat, if we do things right.

Otherwise, Western Armenia is very far from our horizon, and the more time passes the way it is now, the farther it is getting.

[haysip]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

I think having other countries recognize it is not gonna help us in any way. We have more than 20 countries already recognize it, what has changed? on the other hand US will never recognize it because turkey is more important for them than Armenia... Even if the whole world recognizes it, turks won't give back the lands. The only way to do it is to fight for it/ or extremely populate the regions with Armenians, and suck out their blood by taking over their gov't with brainpower. In order to fight we have to have manpower, stable economy/politics, advanced technology/ weaponry... And to have those things, we have to work for it... and serj hasn't done a xxxx. I have many other plans with extreme details and will present them to you guys as time goes on...


and before any of these, we have to get rid of azerbaijan. I have made a video of it, on how to do it. Its called divide and conquer(bazhanir vor tires). United States/britain also do it with the help of their CIA. Why can't we have it also???

[SevSpitak]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

I think having other countries recognize it is not gonna help us in any way. We have more than 20 countries already recognize it, what has changed?

20 countries don't matter, you're right.

But if we get China, Japan, India, Iran, Israel, USA, Spain, Portugal, Australia, UK, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Brazil, Mexico, and Korea to recognize the Armenian Genocide, then let's see what Turkey is going to do when Armenia demands reparations and compensations, and shows what countries back its demand.

Before we think about Western Armenia, though, we need to secure Artsakh.

[haysip]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

Its true what you said, but all of those countries have strong economical ties with turkey. kurds in turkey are like the chinese in china. They work for very cheap so alot of those countries are becoming depended on turkey. so far we have achieved a 20+ countries to recognize it in 90+ yrs which was the easy part. Now we need the important countries which u mentioned to recognize it. It will defently take a lot of time(something we don't have). The only way to have the countries you mentioned to recognize it, is to have them depended on Armenia. Only after that will they recognize the Armenian Genocide. Along with this, we must work on other ideas... like the one I mentioned in the above post. Another one is to take them to international court...

[Davo88]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

Do Armenians want eastern Turkey back?

By Paul Kujawsky

According to the latest in human evolutionary theory, unless you were born in Africa and your ancestors haven’t moved for over a million years, you’re the descendent of immigrants. (If you’re a literal believer in the Adam and Eve story, same thing.) Nothing is more constant than the ceaseless, restless movement of the families of humanity.

Partly as a consequence of this, every national border existing in the world today, without exception, was drawn by migration or conquest. And as a consequence of this, many countries have a “minority question,” since national borders don’t line up perfectly with demographic facts. It can also happen that today’s minority was yesterday’s majority, as frontiers slide and populations surge and ebb.

This underlies one of the arguments in favor of small nation-states. When two or more peoples cohabit in the same state, tensions over language, religion and other aspects of culture may result. If one people regards the other as a conqueror, the conflict can be bitter. Therefore, if the various ethnic groups can’t work out a modus vivendi, then each may be better off in its own state, in which people with a common language, culture and history can work out their destiny together.

However, this can only work if the ethnic groups can compromise over territory. They may both consider a certain area their “homeland;” in that case, they have to award it to one side, or divide it, since they don’t want to share it.

This brings us to Turkey and Armenia. In the ancient world Armenia was a large country in what is now eastern Anatolia. Then the Turks swept into Anatolia from Central Asia. Turkey became the vast Ottoman Empire, and the Armenians were a subject people, their ancestral lands part of Turkey. During World War One, the Turks committed the Armenian Genocide. Soon thereafter Turkey was shorn of its empire and shrunk to its current size, limited to Anatolia and a toehold in Europe. A small Armenian Republic in the Caucasus became part of the Soviet Union. After the implosion of the Soviet Union, Armenia became an independent country, which it remains today.

This thumbnail history suggests that what to the Turks is eastern Turkey may also be western Armenia in Armenian eyes. But I had believed that while the Armenians are aggrieved that Turkey disclaims responsibility for the Armenian Genocide, Armenia doesn’t have any territorial ambitions on Turkish territory.

I may have been mistaken. On February 15, an article titled “Don’t Tread on Me: Little Armenia’s Bottom Line at 20” appeared in Foreign Policy Journal. Raffi Hovannisian, Los Angeles-born and educated, independent Armenia’s first foreign minister in 1991-1992 and now the leader of the opposition Heritage Party in the Armenian Parliament, was the author. While arguing for Armenia’s rights, he strikes a revanchist note. Regarding Turkey, he doesn’t merely complain about the Armenia Genocide, but implies an Armenian right to Turkish territory:

Modern-day Turkey must face history and itself, recognize the great genocide, and cease its unlawful and inhuman occupation of Western Armenia.

I don’t know how widespread this sentiment is among Armenians, whether in Armenia, or in Turkey, or elsewhere in their diaspora. Hovannisian is in the opposition, not speaking for the government. But calling eastern Anatolia “occupied Western Armenia” (unlawfully and inhumanly occupied, at that) can only alarm Turkey.

Armenia is a small country; but to Turks with a sense of history, who can visualize the Ottoman Empire, Turkey can also feel like a small country. Perhaps not a small country, exactly, but a stunted, nibbled-away country. Don’t forget, the Kurds also want to take a chunk of Turkey away for themselves. The Kurds deserve statehood as much as any stateless people does; and perhaps ultimately Turkey will be called upon to supply the land that Kurdistan will be built from. But Turkey can be forgiven for not being eager to make that sacrifice. And if Armenia also seriously wants a piece of Turkey, Turks are unlikely to be pleased.

Nor, by the way, will this make Turkey more yielding on the Armenian Genocide question. Turkey resists admitting responsibility for the genocide partly for fear that doing so will require financial restitution. How much less willing to take responsibility Turkey will become, if there is a risk of territorial restitution.

The Turkish-Armenian border is not sacred, as no border is sacred. It could be adjusted or moved. But while this point may be stunningly obvious, it still must be said: Unless there is a commitment by all sides that border adjustments can only be the result of peaceful negotiations, the ambition to enlarge the national “homeland” may lead to war.

Link: http://www.examiner.com/middle-easte...#ixzz1EAzzvAQm

[Eddo211]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

In regards to this thread by Armenian.....my second post.

I think it would be best if I just quote our commander

...By continuing to invoke Wilson's map and the Treaty of Sèvres we are in fact promoting an unjust notion of our homeland. And this is neither realistic nor in any way conducive to an equitable understanding with other people in the region. Even worse, to do so is to propagate the historically disastrous notion that the best interests of the Armenian people are better defined and "guaranteed" by imperialist governments than by the Armenian people themselves.
�"The Right to Struggle, p.8

Monte

[KanadaHye]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

...By continuing to invoke Wilson's map and the Treaty of Sèvres we are in fact promoting an unjust notion of our homeland. And this is neither realistic nor in any way conducive to an equitable understanding with other people in the region. Even worse, to do so is to propagate the historically disastrous notion that the best interests of the Armenian people are better defined and "guaranteed" by imperialist governments than by the Armenian people themselves.
�"The Right to Struggle, p.8

Monte

While this is somewhat true, the groundwork and documentation for Wilsonian Armenia exists. If we were to somehow convince the world community that it is the right of Armenians to govern those lands, we could put a lot of pressure on Turkey. Surely it has to be easier than what Israel accomplished by pulling the wool over the eyes of the world.

[Eddo211]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

Then you must beat them with Democracy and be united like Israel, or 70 million Turks for that matter.