The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

[Eric]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Can Armenia be THE place where entrance to Shamballa is located?

I tried to search what Shamballa means, and didnt get much what it is, could you please explain the meaning.
P.s I remember one in Armenia there was some psychic from Los Angeles and she said that she wants to move to Armenia because the territory around Mount Ararat is a gate to another universe, are these topics relevant and could you please comment on it.

Thanks

[Armanen]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Also Northpole, you should take a look at www.armenianhighland.com It is the best site on Armenian history, chronicling 12,000 years of Aryan and Armenian history.

Let's open up a new thread to discuss this, cause it seems many members have an interest in Aryan history, culture, and esoteric studies in general.

[North Pole]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

This is political thread, and let's keep it that way.
Armanen, Eric, Armenian, I answered to your posts in new thread - http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php?t=11005

[Lucin]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Lucin jan, you are talking about a very subjective matter. What's more, issues you are raising are very sociological in nature and are very relative as a result. Like I said in the past, Armenians are liked and respected in Iran because Armenians have kept to themselves and stayed out of their way. What's more, Armenians and Persian have a very long history together and a shared animosity/hate/fear of Turks. However, as good as Armenian-Iranian relations have been, how many Armenians can you count within the upper crust of Iranian society today? How many Armenians could be found in the upper crust of pre-revolution Iran? Please tell me what have Armenians in Iran achieved? I think the warm sentiments of Iranians towards us are subjective as best, empty at worst. I am just happy that for us Armenians Iran is not a hostile nation.

What have Armenians achieved in Iran??? Are you serious? It seems that you don't know enough about the Armenian community of Iran. Anyway, Iranian-Armenians (unlike other minorities in Iran) have been/ are active on different levels; economic, business, industry, art, architecture, etc. As for the name of these famous people involved, the list is too long but a whole book has been published on this very issue.

As for Parskayes' role in politics that you brought it up; I agree that comparatively speaking they are not as active/ influential on the political scene but I see a few reasons for their 'inactivity'; one obstacle would be in post-revolution Iran of which I talked about ( religious minorities are not allowed to get involved in politics, it even applies to Sunni Iranians but at the time of war, all of a sudden we become nice Iranians…), also note that they are very business-oriented people by nature and more successful in business and artistic fields, another factor would be that Persian-Armenians unlike Russian- Armenians have not assimilated within the society. Assimilation has allowed some Russian-Armenians to rise the political ladder fast and easily. (And, I am happy to see Russian-Armenians be so active on the political scene of Russia but without forming a lobby ( like Jews in America) and getting more organized I do not see how they can have a big impact on the Armenian Republic…)

In Russia, however, Armenians are fully integrated (fully interwoven) within Russian society. This situation has enabled Armenians to reach great heights in Russian society, more often than not to the benefit of the Armenian nation. However, the full integration of non-Russians in Russian society can also potentially cause sociological/cultural problems. This is natural. It's natural especially if you take into consideration that for every respectful and decent Armenian in Russia - there is at least one other that is disrespectful and uncivilized. It's no secret that some Armenians tend to look down on Russians - and they do this in Russia! And it's not just in Russia. Take a close look at how some Armenians behave in California. I don't know if you know this but Americans in California hate Armenians with a passion. So, it's not always a one way street, Lucin. Be objective in your assessments…

Armenia/Armenians from a Russian perspective:

When Russians entered the Caucasus in the early 19th century by defeating the Turks and the Persians, Armenians were a nation-less ethnic group living as a minority amongst a Muslim (Turkish/Persian) majority. If one took Christianity away from an Armenian in the Caucasus and/or Anatolia the Armenian would be indistinguishable from the Persian or the Turk. In 1915 Yerevan was a tiny backward dusty town of about 30-40 thousand people, a majority of whom were Azeris, Kurds, Persians. An independent Armenia could not survive in the Caucasus had it not been for Russians and/or Communists. All those Armenians that achieved great fame either for their military service, or for their achievements in the sciences, or for their musical/artistic talent were able to do so within the structures of the Russian Empire or within a system setup by the Soviet Union. What's more, if Armenians defeated the Azeris in the 1990s and if Turks choose to stay out of Armenia today - its because of Russian arms...

In Russia however, we have two types of Armenians, it's either Armenians fully assimilated (I don't agree with the word 'integrated' as you can be integrated but not assimilated) or a second group which consists of our compatriots from Armenia and who are 'recent' immigrants and the top contributors to the Armenian economy… And yes, Armenians achieved great heights of the Russian society, got education, etc. within the structures of the Soviet Union and the system at work but also as a result of their determination, hard work and the Armenian genius, something you did not mention.

As for those educated, respectful Russian- Armenians such as Chilingarov, Poghosian, Lavrov, etc. these people could be a huge asset to Armenia. I'd like to know what they have done for Armenia. Obviously, we can't expect from politically active people to express things openly, but what has a Chilingarov (for instance) as a scientist and not a political figure done for Armenia? I liked his interview and it was nice of him to mention his origin, and that he like Armenian brandy. But has he, for instance set up a research centre in Armenia or has he tried to train our scientists? If it's otherwise, correct me please.

The fact is that whether you are a renowned Russian-Armenian scientist or a famous Iranian-Armenian artist, you are first and foremost serving the country you live in, the country you are a citizen of. You are bringing fame and pride for the same country and not Armenia. So, I see no reason to jump up and down and go crazy for them (no matter how huge/ influential they are) unless they are willing to make a positive (even small) move for Armenia, besides their service to their country of residence.

Is it because we were victims of Turks? That black page in our history should warrant respect and admiration? No, Lucin. In the eyes of major nations such a thing suggests weakness; and weakness is not respected.

I do not discuss such issues with odars unless I have to or I'm asked. Why should it even be brought up? Yes, it is an indicator of weakness and victim mentality embedded in some people's psychology like Jews.

[Lucin]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

It's an interesting subject, but, let's keep in mind that
1- It has no bearing on the main thread of discussion - i.e. the perception of Russians of the value of Armenia
2- No member of this forum spends time BS-ing other Armenians into putting all our eggs in the French basket; however, there's (at least) one notorious member who spends an incredible amount of time/effort BS-ing other Armenians into putting all our eggs in the Russian basket; and calumniating anybody who feels differently.

I don't think such a categorical idea has been mentioned, the existence of other thread such as the one on Iran suggests otherwise… In any case, our policymakers in Armenia realize this and I don't think it would be wrong to put a big number of our 'eggs' in a country's basket which is a superpower, is on the rise and of which we benefit for now… On the other hand, Armenia has maintained her good relations with the southern neighbour as well. We also have a few eggs in the Europeans' and Americans' basket…

As for your experience, without getting into into details:
1- I know quite well the attitude of the French towards Armenians - based on life long experience, and the reactions are very different

Of course that the reactions would be different but what is the attitude of an average French based on your life-long experience?

2- I don't know the details of your experience; can you please provide details i.e. where and how? Who were these people? What was your interaction? Where?

As for my experience, it was similar to yours and it was just my observation of their reaction whenever I mentioned 'I am Armenian' which implied indifference. But now that I look back, I think it's quite normal. What should have they told me? We are so proud of you, Armenians?

But again, I was expecting a different reaction/ sentiments from some Armenia-friendly nations...

The opinions/reaction/attitudes of the "average people" reflect some reality. One may chose to ignore them, one may have little interest in them; but, for some us, it reveals certain perceptions, and it has some informational value.

Yes, but what kind of a reality do you think it is? Whatever it is, more often than not, it does not seem to have an impact on politics.

Maybe, maybe not: Everybody can think of the obvious, that is one of the explanations that come readily to the mind
In any case, stating the facts in different than analyzing; my purpose is/was not to analyze them.

By calling your personal experience a fact, you are making gross generalizations and stereotyping a group of people.

In certain countries/culture, there always exist interferences between public opinion and foreign policies; regardless of the degree, and whether they are direct or indirect. Those interferences may be less important in Russia than, for instance, in France; but they are probably much more important in Russia than, for instance, in Iran. It more or less depends on and reflects the degree of democracy - among other factors. That may be true of Iran where public opinion is totally ignored by the authorities; when it comes to the weight of the public opinion, I would not compare Russia with Iran.

The interference of the public opinion and foreign policy more often than not has got to do with some historical disputes between the two countries or the opposite; historical/ cultural affinities which leaves a mark on the bilateral relations. Other than that public opinion is usually ignored. For instance isn't the clown Sarkozy ignoring the opinion of the majority of the French?

[North Pole]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

1% OF RUSSIANS EYE ARMENIA AS RUSSIA'S FRIEND DURING NEXT 10-15 YEARS

http://www.armtown.com/news/en/pan/20070903/23220/

Well, I am Russian and untill I discovered this forum and this thread and I new close to nothing about Armenia/Russia relationship.
The same can be said about many Russian people.

[Armenian]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

What have Armenians achieved in Iran??? Are you serious? It seems that you don't know enough about the Armenian community of Iran. Anyway, Iranian-Armenians (unlike other minorities in Iran) have been/ are active on different levels; economic, business, industry, art, architecture, etc. As for the name of these famous people involved, the list is too long but a whole book has been published on this very issue.

I apologize, I should have been more clear in my statement. I meant to say - politically. I do realize that there are many Armenian businessmen, artists and scholars in Iran. But here again, you can't compare the two diasporas.

As for Parskayes' role in politics that you brought it up; I agree that comparatively speaking they are not as active/ influential on the political scene but I see a few reasons for their 'inactivity'; one obstacle would be in post-revolution Iran of which I talked about ( religious minorities are not allowed to get involved in politics, it even applies to Sunni Iranians but at the time of war, all of a sudden we become nice Iranians…), also note that they are very business-oriented people by nature and more successful in business and artistic fields, another factor would be that Persian-Armenians unlike Russian-Armenians have not assimilated within the society.

What was the role of Armenians in politics in pre-revolution Iran?

I know it was not much.

A point: Iranian-Armenians have not assimilated due to strict religious/cultural codes that have existed in Iran.

Another point: until the Armenian Genocide in 1915 Istanbul-Armenians were in the same exact boat as Iranian-Armenians.

Another point: It's not all about resisting assimilation, its all about the survival of the Armenian Republic. In final analysis, its all about Armenia the homeland. How long do you think Armenians in Iran are going to survive as Armenians, and to what end?

Assimilation has allowed some Russian-Armenians to rise the political ladder fast and easily. (And, I am happy to see Russian-Armenians be so active on the political scene of Russia but without forming a lobby ( like Jews in America) and getting more organized I do not see how they can have a big impact on the Armenian Republic…)

Political lobbies are being formed gradually. The billionaire Ara Abrahamian represents one such influential Armenian-Russian lobby in Moscow. Don't forget such ideas were completely foreign to the mindset of Soviet peoples. So I suggest we give it some time and encouragement instead of complaining.

In Russia however, we have two types of Armenians, it's either Armenians fully assimilated (I don't agree with the word 'integrated' as you can be integrated but not assimilated) or a second group which consists of our compatriots from Armenia and who are 'recent' immigrants and the top contributors to the Armenian economy… And yes, Armenians achieved great heights of the Russian society, got education, etc. within the structures of the Soviet Union and the system at work but also as a result of their determination, hard work and the Armenian genius, something you did not mention.

I used the term integration on purpose. There is a difference between integration and assimilation. For example, Ara Abrahamian is an un-assimilated Armenian integrated fully into Russian society. And Ara Abrahamian is a close friend of Putin, as well as Lavrov, Chilingarov and other very influential and prominant Armenians in Russia.

Note: That a person like Arthur Chilingarov is as "Armenian" as any Parskahai or Americakhai. And yes he does visit Armenia and he does get involved in cross-national relations.

Moreover, the great talent/intellect of us Armenians is natural to our nation. It is also a given, it doesn't even require mention. We definitely are a talented and colorful bunch of people. However without a proper structure/system to refine/implement such abilities they go to waste. Besides, if you reread what I wrote you will realize that I was speaking from a Russian perspective. From a Russian perspective, we Armenians owe them, they owe us nothing. As hard as it may be to accept, let's realize this reality and move forward from there.

I suggest we swallow our pride and place a good portion of our "eggs" in the Russian basket because that basket is poised to be the undisputed ruler of Eurasia for the foreseeable future.

As for those educated, respectful Russian- Armenians such as Chilingarov, Poghosian, Lavrov, etc. these people could be a huge asset to Armenia. I'd like to know what they have done for Armenia. Obviously, we can't expect from politically active people to express things openly, but what has a Chilingarov (for instance) as a scientist and not a political figure done for Armenia? I liked his interview and it was nice of him to mention his origin, and that he like Armenian brandy. But has he, for instance set up a research centre in Armenia or has he tried to train our scientists? If it's otherwise, correct me please.

Lucin, I see here that your personal feelings and your Perskahai pride is talking and not your keen intellect...

Had there been even a single high ranking Armenian minister/politician in Iranian politics you and Hellektor would be the ones "jumping up and down." With that said, I am not "jumping up and down" nor do I "go crazy for them" nor am I making undue noise over prominant Armenians in Russia. I am simply stating that Armenians play a very prominant role in Russian politics and society, a role that continues to grow, and it would be foolish/naive of anyone to think this Armenian representation in Russia does not directly and/or indirectly positively impact the Armenian Republic. It's interesting that for many years Azeris and Turks have been complaining about the great impact Armenians in Russia have on Russian politics, especially regarding Nagorno Karabagh... I'm afraid your sentiments here suggest that we Armenians are always the last ones to recognize and appreciate what is good for Armenia.

The fact is that whether you are a renowned Russian-Armenian scientist or a famous Iranian-Armenian artist, you are first and foremost serving the country you live in, the country you are a citizen of. You are bringing fame and pride for the same country and not Armenia. So, I see no reason to jump up and down and go crazy for them (no matter how huge/ influential they are) unless they are willing to make a positive (even small) move for Armenia, besides their service to their country of residence.

Within our vast diaspora Russia is a unique case where assimilated Armenians can and do impact the Armenian Republic positively, often times more so than the unassimilated ones. Perhaps this is because Armenia is fully dependent on and somewhat integrated to the Russian Federation. Prominent Russians of Armenian decent (In other words, assimilated Armenians in Russia that moved up the ladder) open new avenues for opportunities for Armenia to explore as they also serve to 'condition' the sentiments of the Russian population towards Armenia/Armenians. Although they are on vastly different levels, this situation is somewhat similar to how totally Americanized Jews in America impact American-Israel relations.

Once you put aside your personal bias and seriously consider this issue, you will come to the same realization. Let me remind you again, I was born in Lebanon and grew up in America. If I can approach this topic rationally and objectively, so can you.

I do not discuss such issues with odars unless I have to or I'm asked. Why should it even be brought up? Yes, it is an indicator of weakness and victim mentality embedded in some people's psychology like Jews.

I was speaking in general terms. And generally speaking, the first thing an Armenian diasporan brings up when interacting with a non-Armenian about Armenians/Armenia is the "Armenian Genocide" - closely followed by "Armenia was the first Christian nation"...

And when an "otar" does not react they way we 'expect' them to react, we either label them an idiot or an enemy.

And this concludes my last reply to this topic.

Be well, Lucin jan.

[Siamanto]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

*boosting the dynamism*

FRANCE - A TRUE FRIEND OF ARMENIA



Over 31 % of A1+�s polling participants consider France Armenia�s true friend and over 30 % of our respondents think that Armenia has no true friend.

Below is the general picture of the answers.

Russian - 14%

Iran - 9%

USA - 4 %

Lebanon - 3 %

Georgia - 1%

China - 1%

None of our respondents regards England and Germany as Armenia�s friend.

Over 612 people participated in the polling.

http://www.a1plus.am/en/?page=issue&id=51132

[zeytuntsi]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

http://www.russiablog.org/2008/06/rich_russians_poor_russians.php

Free and Flush, Russians Eager to Roam Abroad
By CLIFFORD J. LEVY
The New York Times

Russian-tourists-Turkey-2.jpg

ANTALYA, Turkey — Yelena Kasyanova booked her trip at a local travel agency in about as much time it takes to drop by the market for a few groceries. She was soon lounging here by the Mediterranean, a working-class anybody from an anyplace deep in Russia, a child of the Soviet era who still remembers the humiliating strictures that once made it difficult to obtain a passport, let alone a plane ticket.

And all around the beach were so many just like her.

One of the most enduring changes in the lives of Russians in recent years has occurred not in Russia itself, but in places like this coastal region of Turkey, where an influx of Russian tourists has given rise to a mini-industry catering to their needs. A people who under Communism were rarely allowed to venture abroad, and then lacked money to do so when the political barriers first fell, are now seeing the world. And relishing it.

There is perhaps no better symbol of the growth in Russian tourism than the very resort where Ms. Kasyanova was staying, the Kremlin Palace Hotel, a kind of Las-Vegas-does-Moscow-by-the-shore extravaganza whose buildings are replicas of major sights at the Kremlin complex and nearby neighborhood. Why go to any old spot when you can frolic by the pool while gazing at the reassuring onion domes of a faux St. Basil’s Cathedral? (No need to bundle up against the cold, either!)

Ms. Kasyanova, 51, a health-care aide from the Kaluga region, 125 miles southwest of Moscow, has been to Egypt, Hungary and Turkey in the last few years and has Western Europe in her sights. For her and other Russians interviewed here, foreign travel reflects not just Russia’s economic revival under Vladimir V. Putin, but also how the country has become, in some essential ways, normal.

If you have some time and a little money, you can travel. Just like everyone else in the world.

“It is now so easy — buy a package tour for $800, and here we are, in paradise,” said Ms. Kasyanova, who, like many Russians here, was amused by the resort’s trappings but also interested in exploring the mountains and other places nearby. “It speaks of the high standard of life in Russia, of the improvement in life in Russia.”

The Russians are coming from all over. At the local airport here, the arrivals screen was like a primer in Russian geography, with charter flights from Moscow, Rostov-on-Don in the south, Kazan in the center, Novosibirsk in Siberia and other cities in between.

The number of Russian tourists visiting countries outside the former Soviet Union grew to 7.1 million in 2006, the last year statistics were available, from 2.6 million in 1995, according to the Russian government.

A record 2.5 million Russians visited Turkey in 2007, up 33 percent from 2006, Turkish officials said. Only Germany, that paragon of European wealth, sends more tourists to Turkey. (By contrast, in 1988, a few years before the collapse of the Soviet Union, all of 22,000 Soviet citizens visited Turkey.)

The Russian tourism boom is happening as new low-cost airlines in Europe have spurred a sharp increase in tourism across the Continent. But for the Russians, the chance to travel is especially prized.

For the first time in Russian history, wide swaths of the citizenry are being exposed to life in far-off lands, helping to ease a kind of insularity and parochialism that built up in the Soviet era. Back then, the public was not only prevented from going abroad; it was also inculcated with propaganda that the Soviet Union was unquestionably the world’s best country, so there was no need to leave anyway.

People who desired foreign travel in Soviet times typically had to receive official approval, and if it was granted, they were closely chaperoned once they crossed the border. Even before they left, they often were sent to classes to be indoctrinated in how to behave and avoid the perils of foreign influence. Those who were not in good standing with the party had little chance of going.

The controls on travel were particularly onerous given Russia’s long and dark winters.

“For us, it’s like a fairy tale to be here,” said Lilia Valeyeva, 46, a clerk from Chelyabinsk in the Ural Mountains who had never before been abroad when she visited Turkey two years ago. Since then, she has returned twice.

“We are seeing other countries with our own eyes, how other people live,” she said.

Many Russians interviewed here credited Mr. Putin, the former president and current prime minister, for their ability to travel, saying that he was responsible for Russia’s new prosperity.

“It is not like before, when we were afraid of everything,” said Larisa Kazakova, 32, a real estate agent from Yekaterinburg. “We travel, and we live a good life.”

These days, Russians can compare the services they receive abroad with those at home, and can mingle with tourists from everywhere. How these experiences will alter their perspective at home is an intriguing question.

The writer and commentator Viktor Yerofeyev said he had noticed that the more Russians traveled, the more they tended to lose some of the coarseness that at times characterized Soviet society.

“Through all this travel, we are seeing a change in mentality at home,” Mr. Yerofeyev said. “People are now seeking pleasure, whether it is in the night clubs of Moscow or in restaurants. Travel is a continuation of that pleasure. Just to have pleasant lives, not to suffer, to feel positive. Their life compass changes, from ‘I don’t care about anything’ to ‘I would like to have a better life.’ Travel is a part of this.”

“The world is becoming part of their lives,” he said.

The first major wave of Russian tourists after the fall of the Soviet Union did not necessarily do their country proud, sometimes acting like rowdy college freshmen getting a taste of spring break in Florida. There were tales of hotels limiting or even banning some Russian tour groups because of drunken behavior.

Hotel executives in Turkey said things had largely settled down, with many Russian families now vacationing here, and relatively few problems.

“Nobody believes me when I say this, but the Germans drink even more than the Russians,” said Ali Akgun, a manager at another hotel in the area, the Kemer Holiday Club. “It’s just that the Russians drink a little faster.”

The biggest struggle now for the Turkish hotels is to find enough staff members who speak Russian. Those in the tourism industry who had mastered German and English are returning to language school.

“Everybody is studying Russian now,” said Suat Esenli, a worker at the Kremlin Palace Hotel, which has more than 800 rooms and opened in 2003, just as Russian tourism began to soar. Typically, about 60 percent of the hotel’s patrons are from the former Soviet Union, with the rest from elsewhere in Europe.

Still, the effort to make Russian guests feel comfortable can go too far. For a time, one of the hotel restaurants served the sort of dishes — borscht, blinis and the like — that should have brought joy to a Russian’s heart.

The restaurant had to scrap the menu. It turned out that the last thing that the Russians wanted was the food they could get at home.

[North Pole]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

http://www.russiablog.org/2008/06/ri...r_russians.php

Free and Flush, Russians Eager to Roam Abroad
By CLIFFORD J. LEVY
The New York Times

Russian-tourists-Turkey-2.jpg

ANTALYA, Turkey — Yelena Kasyanova booked her trip at a local travel agency in about as much time it takes to drop by the market for a few groceries. She was soon lounging here by the Mediterranean, a working-class anybody from an anyplace deep in Russia, a child of the Soviet era who still remembers the humiliating strictures that once made it difficult to obtain a passport, let alone a plane ticket.

Zeytuntsi, why do our tourists go to Turkey? Is it because it's cheaper overthere? I know that many people go on vacation to Egypt too....
The Turks advertise their tourist industry big time. I live in US, I see VISIT TURKEY billboards everywhere, they even put them on buses....

Being a landlocked country, Armenia still has plenty to offer, the Armenians must build up their tourist business too.

Half of Europe’s millionaires are Russian

June 25, 2008

Half of Europe’s millionaires are Russian, according to financial group Merrill Lynch. A report by the U.S. firm found the number of rich Russians is growing twice as fast as the global rate.
Merrill Lynch says that after Euro-2008, Russia will have 11 more millionaires. There are already 136,000 of them, with more than $US 1 million to spare.

The number of rich individuals in Russia grew by 14% last year - more than twice the global average. Merrill Lynch says this was fuelled by increased market capitalisation, rising direct foreign investment, strong consumer demand and soaring energy prices.

Jean-Marie Deluermoz of Merrill Lynch said: “The conclusion of our findings this year is that in Europe the most attractive growth story is certainly Russia.”
Alexander Kochubey from Renaissance Capital agrees that the country is now at the peak of a very strong wave of wealth creation, but he says: “The reality is that in Russia wealth is concentrated in very few hands.”


READ MORE -- http://russiatoday.ru/business/news/26660

VIDEO - http://youtube.com/watch?v=XwJ1O0Tby-c