Armenian-Turkish Relations

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I am not suprised that officials from the RA didn't really help out, but I can't find a good reason why Armenian organizations from Europe wouldn't lend a hand.

ROA officials did their best to stop info about the destruction becoming widely known. For example, when a delegation who wanted to question UNESCO's Director General face-to-face, to protest the destruction, asked the Armenian Embassy in France to provide some representation in order to enhance the status of the delegation, the embassy refused. And when they eventually did manage to get an audience, they went there meekly and respectfully, as if it were a great honour, rather than using the occasion to confront the person who was a part of the problem, its Director General and Azeri lapdog, Matsuura. And they didn't even make a press release afterwards, so nothing is on record. For example, the slimy Matsuura had previously refused to make any public comment on the destruction, saying that UNESCO could say nothing until UNESCO's own investigators had visited the site and independantly verified the destruction. Yet during the audience, Matsuura admitted that he had never asked Azerbaijan if UNESCO investigators could visit the site.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I'm not surprised. Armenians rarely help other Armenians so that they or their party can get credit for it instead. Armenians are the most xenophobic towards each other than any other group of people. It's as if there's so many of us on this Earth, we don't even need to tolerate those who are slightly different in thought or perception.

If it wasn't for Turks, the country of Armenia would be more of a doormat than Georgia, more ethnically diverse than the US and about as wealthy as Haiti. For 100 years, the extremists ("revolutionaries") have tried very hard to pin our whole identity not on our thousands of years of existence, but rather, a dream of independence and/or persecution under Turkish rule. Gone are the good ole days when we were a great culture on our own, and the Turkish actually admired us and preferred us (as the xxxs are preferred among gentiles in the US).

Did you get beat up a lot by Armenian kids when you were young or what? For sure you must have had a number of bad experiencies with other Armenians otherwise you wouldn't be writing these things.

[AlphaPapa]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I'm not surprised. Armenians rarely help other Armenians so that they or their party can get credit for it instead. Armenians are the most xenophobic towards each other than any other group of people. It's as if there's so many of us on this Earth, we don't even need to tolerate those who are slightly different in thought or perception.

If it wasn't for Turks, the country of Armenia would be more of a doormat than Georgia, more ethnically diverse than the US and about as wealthy as Haiti. For 100 years, the extremists ("revolutionaries") have tried very hard to pin our whole identity not on our thousands of years of existence, but rather, a dream of independence and/or persecution under Turkish rule. Gone are the good ole days when we were a great culture on our own, and the Turkish actually admired us and preferred us (as the xxxs are preferred among gentiles in the US).

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Charles Tannock is the MEP who raised at the European Parliament the issue of the destruction of the medieval Julfa graveyards by Azerbaijan. In getting together the required evidence, he got very little support from Armenia or Armenians, btw.

I am not suprised that officials from the RA didn't really help out, but I can't find a good reason why Armenian organizations from Europe wouldn't lend a hand.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

that's a good article (above). simply put, with the Turkish attitude of advocating the Azerbaijani cause, it'll never achieve true peace or an open border with Armenia. When the Turks learn to shut up with the pro-Azeri statements, THEN should Armenia seek 'protocols'.

Charles Tannock is the MEP who raised at the European Parliament the issue of the destruction of the medieval Julfa graveyards by Azerbaijan. In getting together the required evidence, he got very little support from Armenia or Armenians, btw.

[AlphaPapa]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

that's a good article (above). simply put, with the Turkish attitude of advocating the Azerbaijani cause, it'll never achieve true peace or an open border with Armenia. When the Turks learn to shut up with the pro-Azeri statements, THEN should Armenia seek 'protocols'.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

DIPLOMACY COULD FOOL THE WORLD OR CHANGE THE CAUCASUS
Dr Charles Tannock

New Europe

http://www.neurope.eu/articles/97033.php

Oct 19 2009

Relations between Turkey and Armenia have been overshadowed by the
Armenian genocide for close to a hundred years. So the protocols
signed last Saturday (10 October), aimed at establishing diplomatic
relations and opening the common border, represent a remarkable peak
in relations between those two countries. The question is whether
the protocols will have a chance of ever being implemented.

Of course, there have been accusations against Turkey of making empty
gestures over Armenia to impress the West, particularly the EU, which
Turkey hopes to join one day. Isolated and economically stagnant,
Armenia has much to gain from normalized relations and a re-opening
of the shared border. So it has made great efforts and painfully
offered to ignore the genocide issue for now, to reach out to Turkey.

Turkey's decision to react positively to Armenia's overtures first
appeared to be based on long-term strategic considerations. Turkey
knows that improving relations by opening its long closed border with
Armenia is essential to its goal of both becoming a regional political
player as well as joining the EU, which wants peaceful and trade-rich
borders, not borders that are disputed or highly militarized.

But the strategy became more obvious, when Turkey inserted a quasi
precondition to the ratification of the protocols, the resolution of
the conflict about Nagorno Karabakh, which is official Azerbaijani
territory despite being part of Armenia's historic homeland and 90
per cent of the population being ethnic Armenians. Foreign Minister
Davutoglu wanted to make a respective speech at the signing ceremony,
which US pressure prevented in the very last minute - so no speeches
were consequently held.

Turkey's breakthrough with Armenia has incited a sharp deterioration
of relations with Azerbaijan, which remains on a war footing with
Armenia. The Aliyev government in Baku now feels abandoned by its
closest regional ally and Muslim Turkic 'brother'. After all in the
early 1990's, Turkey officially justified closing its border with
Armenia as an act of solidarity with Azerbaijan, which had just lost
the war with Armenia over Karabakh.

Now, while the Islamist AK party of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan
enjoys a very comfortable parliamentary majority in the house, Erdogan
said only one day after the signature what Davutoglu was not allowed to
say on the evening: The Turkish parliament would find it difficult to
ratify the protocols as long as there are Armenian troops on Azeri
territory, i.e. in Karabakh. Remembering that the international
community has been trying to find a solution for Karabakh for more
than 15 years, this statement seems to signal that Turkey does not
intend to open the border in the foreseeable future.

Observers feared that this could lead to a total breakdown of the
process, but the Armenian President apparently decided to show to
the world that the ball remains in the Turkish court, by announcing
that he would still visit Turkey for the return football match between
Turkey and Armenia on 14 October. The first match last autumn was the
occasion for his invitation to the Turkish President and triggered
the whole rapprochement process, hence dubbed "football diplomacy".

The biggest problem with Erdogan's statement is that it renders the
frozen conflict Karabakh dispute virtually unsolvable. Experts were
hoping that a normalization of relations between Turkey and Armenia
would force Azerbaijan to make more meaningful proposals in the
negotiations about Karabakh. Instead, the situation is now inverted.

The Azerbaijani leadership now knows that any concession on Karabakh
would also trigger a victory for Armenia's diplomacy vis-a-vis Turkey,
open the border and strengthen Armenia's independence. Baku has
said several times that all this would be contrary to its national
interests.

If there is still a potential to conclude this process, it now depends
strongly on Turkey's motivation to go ahead, bypassing Azerbaijani
pressure. To this end, the question of energy supply is part of
Turkey's calculations.

Azerbaijan may have a lot of oil and gas, but Turkey is indispensable
to the transport and marketing of those energy resources to key
European markets. This consideration correlates with the view of
many analysts that Turkey wants above all to portray itself as
a reliable energy hub essential to Western energy security. The
Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline has now been operational for three
years and the proposed Nabucco gas pipeline, which also runs from
Azerbaijan through Turkey, has won heavy financial and diplomatic
backing from both the EU and the US. By kicking up a fuss about the
Turkey-Armenia rapprochement, Azerbaijan will irritate its Western
partner, whose approval will be vital as Azerbaijan itself seeks
greater integration into Euroatlantic security and economic structures.

The Turkey-Armenia détente is also an effort by both sides to affirm
ties to Russia.

Moscow has long been Armenia's protector against any military
aggression by Turkey. Armenia is also Russia's only strong friend
in the South Caucasus. Turkey's relations with Russia have been less
straightforward over the past century but recently they have warmed
substantially.

Just before Turkey and Armenia announced their breakthrough, Russia and
Turkey announced a series of measures to deepen cooperation on energy
issues. In particular, Turkey is facilitating Gazprom's Southstream
pipeline through its territorial waters - which is the Kremlin's
latest effort to maintain a stranglehold on gas supplies to Europe -
while at the same time with strong EU backing Turkey is pressing ahead
with the Nabucco project, provided an angry Azerbaijan does not pull
out. Clearly, Russia is using some tempting economic and strategic
sweeteners to try and drive a wedge between Turkey and the EU, while
Turkey seems to enjoy playing Russia and the EU against each other.

Of course Turkey's decision to heed Armenia's call for normalized
relations is infused with a healthy dose of cynical realpolitik,
but the same can be said for Armenia, which ultimately has as much
to gain from the deal as Turkey does, not least the ability to trade
with the impoverished eastern Turkish regions and enable nostalgic
Armenians to readily visit and restore some of the cultural patrimony
to their long abandoned historic villages close to the border.

But these realpolitik maneuvers should not obscure the tangible
progress that this détente could represent. Turkey still has far to
go before it can convince the EU of its readiness to join.

But any moves to reduce tension in the South Caucasus should be
welcomed unequivocally. Anyway, the Caucasus badly needs a sign like
this potentially first ever diplomatic resolution of a dispute. To
allow for all this, the key question for the West now is how to
ensure that Armenia and Turkey actually ratify and implement the
Swiss brokered protocols.

Dr Charles Tannock, MEP Foreign Affairs Spokesman of the ERC Group
(European Conservatives and Reformists) in the European Parliament

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

By Kicking Up Fuss About Armenia -Turkey Rapprochement, Azerbaijan Will Irritate Turkey
From: Sebouh Z Tashjian <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 18:04:41 +0500 (AMST)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BY KICKING UP FUSS ABOUT ARMENIA -TURKEY RAPPROCHEMENT, AZERBAIJAN WILL IRRITATE TURKEY

PanARMENIAN.Net
19.10.2009 14:27 GMT+04:00

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ By kicking up fuss about Armenia -Turkey
rapprochement, Azerbaijan will irritate Turkey, an expert Charles
Tannock stated in his article published in New Europe news source.

"Experts were hoping that a normalization of relations between Turkey
and Armenia would force Azerbaijan to make more meaningful proposals
in the negotiations about Karabakh. The Azerbaijani leadership now
knows that any concession on Karabakh would also trigger a victory
for Armenia's diplomacy vis-a-vis Turkey," the article notes.

According to the expert, by kicking up a fuss about the Armenia -Turkey
rapprochement, Azerbaijan will irritate its Western partner, whose
approval will be vital as Azerbaijan itself seeks greater integration
into Euroatlantic security and economic structures.

"Armenia, ultimately, has as much to gain from the deal as Turkey
does. Turkey still has far to go before it can convince the EU of
its readiness to join," Charles Tannock emphasized.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

"The Armenian diaspora does not live in Armenia, they cannot dictate what Armenia wants when they do not live there."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Turkey Deal ‘Unpopular In Yerevan’



Most residents of Yerevan oppose Armenia’s fence-mending agreements with Turkey and do not look forward to the possible reopening of the Turkish-Armenian border, according to an opinion poll released by on Monday.
The government-linked Armenian Sociological Association (ASA) conducted the survey among 1,000 city residents on September 20-21, three weeks before the signing of the Turkish-Armenian protocols.

According to Gevorg Poghosian, the ASA chairman, 52.4 percent of them rejected the agreements envisaging the normalization of relations between the two countries. Only 39 percent approved of the deal, he said.

“It is obvious that at least in our republic, the public is split,” Poghosian told a news conference.

He said many Armenians feel that the administration of President Serzh Sarkisian is making too many concessions to the Turks. “For many, many of our citizens it is still not clear why we are making such concessions,” he said.

The poll, which is likely to be seized upon by Sarkisian’s opponents, suggests that even the prospect of an open with Turkey does not arouse much enthusiasm in the Armenian capital. Poghosian said only 48 percent of respondents supported border opening, while 41 percent wanted the Turkish-Armenian frontier to remain closed.

Aharon Adibekian, another well-known pollster with reputed government connections, questioned the credibility of the survey’s findings. The online news service 7or.am quoted Adibekian as saying that the poll did not take into account the opinion of those Armenians who are “indifferent” to the matter. He claimed that they make up as much 40 percent of the country’s population.

http://www.azatutyun.am/content/article/1855758.html

That is so stupid, like everyone who has ever made a poll knows that you gota include the indifferent option into it to give you results reflecting reality. If their polll questions are that incomplete then i would rightfully question the entire polling procedure thus its results.

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

"The Armenian diaspora does not live in Armenia, they cannot dictate what Armenia wants when they do not live there."
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Turkey Deal ‘Unpopular In Yerevan’



Most residents of Yerevan oppose Armenia’s fence-mending agreements with Turkey and do not look forward to the possible reopening of the Turkish-Armenian border, according to an opinion poll released by on Monday.
The government-linked Armenian Sociological Association (ASA) conducted the survey among 1,000 city residents on September 20-21, three weeks before the signing of the Turkish-Armenian protocols.

According to Gevorg Poghosian, the ASA chairman, 52.4 percent of them rejected the agreements envisaging the normalization of relations between the two countries. Only 39 percent approved of the deal, he said.

“It is obvious that at least in our republic, the public is split,” Poghosian told a news conference.

He said many Armenians feel that the administration of President Serzh Sarkisian is making too many concessions to the Turks. “For many, many of our citizens it is still not clear why we are making such concessions,” he said.

The poll, which is likely to be seized upon by Sarkisian’s opponents, suggests that even the prospect of an open with Turkey does not arouse much enthusiasm in the Armenian capital. Poghosian said only 48 percent of respondents supported border opening, while 41 percent wanted the Turkish-Armenian frontier to remain closed.

Aharon Adibekian, another well-known pollster with reputed government connections, questioned the credibility of the survey’s findings. The online news service 7or.am quoted Adibekian as saying that the poll did not take into account the opinion of those Armenians who are “indifferent” to the matter. He claimed that they make up as much 40 percent of the country’s population.

http://www.azatutyun.am/content/article/1855758.html