Armenian-Turkish Relations

Forum Rules (Everyone Must Read!!!)

1] What you CAN NOT post.

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is:
- abusive
- vulgar
- hateful
- harassing
- personal attacks
- obscene

You also may not:
- post images that are too large (max is 500*500px)
- post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or cited properly.
- post in UPPER CASE, which is considered yelling
- post messages which insult the Armenians, Armenian culture, traditions, etc
- post racist or other intentionally insensitive material that insults or attacks another culture (including Turks)

The Ankap thread is excluded from the strict rules because that place is more relaxed and you can vent and engage in light insults and humor. Notice it's not a blank ticket, but just a place to vent. If you go into the Ankap thread, you enter at your own risk of being clowned on.
What you PROBABLY SHOULD NOT post...
Do not post information that you will regret putting out in public. This site comes up on Google, is cached, and all of that, so be aware of that as you post. Do not ask the staff to go through and delete things that you regret making available on the web for all to see because we will not do it. Think before you post!

2] Use descriptive subject lines & research your post. This means use the SEARCH.

This reduces the chances of double-posting and it also makes it easier for people to see what they do/don't want to read. Using the search function will identify existing threads on the topic so we do not have multiple threads on the same topic.

3] Keep the focus.

Each forum has a focus on a certain topic. Questions outside the scope of a certain forum will either be moved to the appropriate forum, closed, or simply be deleted. Please post your topic in the most appropriate forum. Users that keep doing this will be warned, then banned.

4] Behave as you would in a public location.

This forum is no different than a public place. Behave yourself and act like a decent human being (i.e. be respectful). If you're unable to do so, you're not welcome here and will be made to leave.

5] Respect the authority of moderators/admins.

Public discussions of moderator/admin actions are not allowed on the forum. It is also prohibited to protest moderator actions in titles, avatars, and signatures. If you don't like something that a moderator did, PM or email the moderator and try your best to resolve the problem or difference in private.

6] Promotion of sites or products is not permitted.

Advertisements are not allowed in this venue. No blatant advertising or solicitations of or for business is prohibited.
This includes, but not limited to, personal resumes and links to products or
services with which the poster is affiliated, whether or not a fee is charged
for the product or service. Spamming, in which a user posts the same message repeatedly, is also prohibited.

7] We retain the right to remove any posts and/or Members for any reason, without prior notice.

- PLEASE READ -

Members are welcome to read posts and though we encourage your active participation in the forum, it is not required. If you do participate by posting, however, we expect that on the whole you contribute something to the forum. This means that the bulk of your posts should not be in "fun" threads (e.g. Ankap, Keep & Kill, This or That, etc.). Further, while occasionally it is appropriate to simply voice your agreement or approval, not all of your posts should be of this variety: "LOL Member213!" "I agree."
If it is evident that a member is simply posting for the sake of posting, they will be removed.

8] These Rules & Guidelines may be amended at any time. (last update September 17, 2009)

If you believe an individual is repeatedly breaking the rules, please report to admin/moderator.

See less

Haykakan replied

10-12-2009, 05:57 PM
Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Originally posted by jgk3 View Post

In terms of national security, it is a definite loss for Armenia, giving up its most strategic positions for keeping Azeris from invading Artsakh and Syunik.

Once these deals get done we wont need to worry about the azeris attacking for a long time. As i said before the Azeris would have already attacked us if it was not for russia despite us holding the strategic positions now. I am hopefull we will keep some of the more important strategic positions but once we start doing business things will change between our people. Business has a way of mending wounds, we will see how this goes.
Leave a comment:
jgk3 replied

10-12-2009, 05:45 PM
Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Originally posted by Armanen View Post

To add a bit to what Haykakan said.

The union between Russia and Belarus is not likely to happen anytime soon, the two nations are not very eager to become a true union. The most important aspect of the union is the military one, which is essentially done already as both are CSTO members and share much military intelligence in regards to the European front.

The chances of the azeris joining the Union is about as likely as the u.s. being allowed to join the SCO.

The likely outcome is that azerbaijan will agree to give up Artsakh and a land corridor linking Artsakh with Armenia, in return Armenia will give up 5 of the 7 regions around the NKAO. This may anger some but if it will ensure that Armenia has open borders, becomes a regional transit hub, and doesn't endanger the people of Armenia and Artsakh than it is a good trade off.

However, it is too soon to really be talking about any of this, afterall, there is a chance the protocols will not be ratified by either parliament.

In terms of national security, it is a definite loss for Armenia, giving up its most strategic positions for keeping Azeris from invading Artsakh and Syunik.
Leave a comment:
Haykakan replied

10-12-2009, 05:39 PM
Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I am pretty sure they will be ratified. A lot of work by many people has been done to get to this point plus preparations are already being made on the assumption that borders will open. I dont think the kind of money being spent on preparations would be spent unless this was a done deal. The kharabagh resolution should follow quickly probably like Armanen said but i am hopefull we can hang on to some of those 5 regions.
Leave a comment:
Armanen replied

10-12-2009, 05:12 PM
Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Originally posted by Haykakan View Post

That scenerio takes Turckey out of the picture completely and hurts it economicaly(this alone would be considered a win by many here). Armenia will indeed win in this scenerio also Fed because under Russias control the Azeris cannot go to war without its ok and thus Armenia is saved from the eastern threat. It is important to remember that Russia wants the turckish wedge as much as we do thus no matter what the azeri situation turns out being they will still want Armenia there. Also important to remember is the fact that oil is not the only thing that was flowing through Georgia which now needs a new route. Even in this scenerio Armenia can still benefit greatly by serving as a transport rout not for oil this time but for everything else that needs to go to asia, europe, middleeast. I personaly think this is Russias plan B but i very much dought this will happen because the usa and europe prefer the oil not to go through russia itself. Plan A is more lucrative for all involved parties imcluding russia so i think the chance of plan B is pretty slim. Why would Russia prefer plan a to plan b you say? Because it would give russia greater control over turckey by controling the flow of oil through Armenia. While option B weakens turckey in general it is not as lucrative for russia because it doesnt want its bigest trading partnet to go broke instead it wants to have its grasp around its throat(optionA) so it can make it do whatever it wants instead. Armenia is in a good position here regardless but option A is the better option for all involved, including Armenia.

To add a bit to what Haykakan said.

The union between Russia and Belarus is not likely to happen anytime soon, the two nations are not very eager to become a true union. The most important aspect of the union is the military one, which is essentially done already as both are CSTO members and share much military intelligence in regards to the European front.

The chances of the azeris joining the Union is about as likely as the u.s. being allowed to join the SCO.

The likely outcome is that azerbaijan will agree to give up Artsakh and a land corridor linking Artsakh with Armenia, in return Armenia will give up 5 of the 7 regions around the NKAO. This may anger some but if it will ensure that Armenia has open borders, becomes a regional transit hub, and doesn't endanger the people of Armenia and Artsakh than it is a good trade off.

However, it is too soon to really be talking about any of this, afterall, there is a chance the protocols will not be ratified by either parliament.
Leave a comment:
ninetoyadome replied

10-12-2009, 04:32 PM
Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Originally posted by Army View Post

Well, is not that what UN says.

Well lets not forget that only muslim countries voted for the resolution, the OSCE minsk group (France, Russia, US), Armenia, India, Vanuatu voted against it and over 100 countries abstained so i wouldnt call that a solid argument that UN accepts azerbaijans territorial integrity.
If u want to talk about territorial integrity you can look at CIA documents which recognize Artsakh as part of Armenia and the European Parliament documents which also recognize Artsakh as part of Armenia. Both talk about how historically Artsakh is a part of Armenia only to be annexed by stalin to azerbaijan.
Leave a comment:
Army replied

10-12-2009, 01:53 PM
Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Originally posted by Davo88 View Post

Perhaps, but Turkey is more vocal and demanding about it. After all, wasn't it the reason why it closed the border in 1993?

Seems like it is.
Leave a comment:
Davo88 replied

10-12-2009, 01:48 PM
Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Perhaps, but Turkey is more vocal and demanding about it. After all, wasn't it the reason why it closed the border in 1993?
Leave a comment:
Army replied

10-12-2009, 12:42 PM
Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Originally posted by Davo88 View Post

they announced that they would support Azerbaijan's territorial integrity (NKR)

Well, is not that what UN says.
Leave a comment:
Davo88 replied

10-12-2009, 12:07 PM
Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Hey, we're talking about Turkey here, not the peacefullest of countries. Only a couple of days ago they announced that they would support Azerbaijan's territorial integrity (NKR) and sympathized with the Azeris' dreams of "liberating" Սիւնիք.
Leave a comment:
Army replied

10-12-2009, 11:45 AM
Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Originally posted by Davo88 View Post

The answer of your question is in the paragraph that you wrote, we are clearly disadvantaged in this scenario. For instance, in case of normal Turkey-Armenia and Turkey-Azerbaijan relations, Turkey would favour their Azerbaijani brothers any time in case of a war. In the long-term, if Turkish influence spreads in Armenia, I believe that it will be used against us in case of another Azeri-Armenian war and I am sure that our enemies know it. So in this scenario both Russia and Turkey would be supportive of Azerbaijan.

Nobody would let a war against a country that is influenced by him. This would rasp both side's will to war again. And at the end, there would be a diplomatic solution. That way, both sides would lose and both side would win.
Leave a comment: