Armenian-Turkish Relations

[hipeter924]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

301 is not a racist law,this is more better existence of such law instead of its absence. It creates balance.

Think about someone in Armenia is a writer or reporter or something like that insult all the Armenians, Armenian culture etc, how would be a reaction toward to him ? Can you imagine that ?

In Turkey ultra nationalists do not accept such a writer, but when Turkey has a law like 301, U-Nationalists think this man would go court (will be punished or not)........ anyway they stop their reaction, because of knowing existence of 301 creates check and balances.


BTW, Greece also threaten Turkey's territorial integrity, this is a mutual action.

Once you start saying what is and isn't hate speech free speech dies, in some cases like genocide denial there are laws passed but that they are not proven to have really stopped people denying genocides. No government has a right to tell you what you can and cannot say.

For example, if someone insulted our country here people wouldn't be happy but its allowed because its part of freedom of expression. Its hard for countries that don't have as liberal and free thinking laws but society is a better happier place where you can say and think whatever you want.

Its a system that has worked for a long time here, and if there are problems people complain to the human rights commission which is accredited with the UN and human rights organisations and problems are resolved with both parties that make the comments.

There is no excuse for removing the right to think and say what you want, if you do the only word that comes to mind is dictatorship because go down the road of speech restrictions and that is what you get.

[Yakamoz]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Turkey will never become part of the EU with French, German and Greek veto's which will only be removed if Turkey removes its nationalistic and racist laws like 301 and stops threatening the territorial integrity of Greece. It has done neither and with popular support in all three nations against Turkish membership its simply not going to happen.

301 is not a racist law,this is more better existence of such law instead of its absence. It creates balance.

Think about someone in Armenia is a writer or reporter or something like that insult all the Armenians, Armenian culture etc, how would be a reaction toward to him ? Can you imagine that ?

In Turkey ultra nationalists do not accept such a writer, but when Turkey has a law like 301, U-Nationalists think this man would go court (will be punished or not)........ anyway they stop their reaction, because of knowing existence of 301 creates check and balances.


BTW, Greece also threaten Turkey's territorial integrity, this is a mutual action.

[hipeter924]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Turkey will never become part of the EU with French, German and Greek veto's which will only be removed if Turkey removes its nationalistic and racist laws like 301 and stops threatening the territorial integrity of Greece. It has done neither and with popular support in all three nations against Turkish membership its simply not going to happen.

[Davo88]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Imagine turckey becomes a eu member, and we already know russia controls gas and oil supplies to europe. Now picture a peace treaty being signed by armenia and the azeris(the details of which we wont get into for now). Now caspien oil and gas can be piped to europe and america can get its there to. This pipeline runs from the caspien and its surrounding states which own its various basins, through azerbadjian then through armenia then turckey... The benefits for the states involved are obvious but why would russia want this? Russia wants to maintain the firm grip it now possesses over pipelines leading to the west and it achieves exactly that by having the oil run through its ally Armenia which it can control easily.

What you are explaining proves my point, precisely. If Turkey becomes a member of the EU, and the Armenian “problem” is solved for good, the Europeans would have easier access to Azerbaijani and Central Asian oil without having to go through Russia. I should add that if the Armenian “problem” is solved there would be no need for Armenia to maintain a firm alliance with Russia like it used to. If we have a friendly or seemingly friendly neighbour why would we need Russia’s help now? So I do not see how this whole thing would give a firmer grip to Russia what goes on in Caucasus and the larger area.

Armenia wins big here by becoming the center of perhaps the most important trade route in the world and i am not just talking oil either. grand transportation projects such as railroads and highways linking asia to europe to the middleast will pass through Armenia and Armenia will keep kharabagh along with its armenian population and the corridor linking it to Armenia.

True, Armenia has the potential to be an important transit route just as it used to be back in Antiquity or the Middle Ages (silk road) but it is not worth the stipulations in the protocols. Note that the protocols do not guarantee that Armenia will keep Karabagh and/or the surrounding areas. On the contrary it is still a big question mark as Karabagh is not mentioned at all in the text.

It is easy to understand how armenian diasporas voice gets lost in this equation. No matter how just our caus is, we are not powerful enough to take justice ourselves and it is in no one elses interest to do it for us. In my opinion it would be best to follow this plan because it makes armenia a wealthy and important player in the world which it would never achieve otherwise.

If my explanations hold water, it would actually be of Russia’s interest to further the Armenian cause especially if its antagonism or rivalry to the EU / US is genuine. Things actually remind me to the situation of the late 1800s - early 1900s.

So I find it somewhat weird that Russia is implicated in the redaction of the protocols.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Opening borders is profitable for Turkey, Russia, EU and USA, it isn’t a concession for Turkey. But for Armenia it is, because the borders have been closed only by the Turkish side.

Doing this Turkey, Russia, EU and USA, based on the “third countries territorial integrity” provision of the “Protocol”, and impending threat of closing borders again, will prevent the war between Armenia – Azerbaijan, with great chances of solving the Artsakh issue soon on Azerbaijan’s favor.

All this is done to ensure stability and peace in Caucasus region for smooth functioning of the gas and oil pipelines; just the Russia-Azerbaijan-Turkey-Greece pipeline will bring Turkey huge profits; 15% of the proceeds, as I read about it during Erdogan-Putin negotiations.

Thus the only looser in this deal is Armenia.

I explained how Armenia stands to benefit greatly also but i guess you chose to ignore that part.

[gegev]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Originally Posted by gegev
Our state hired employees/politicians claim that using the “historical sub-commission" they can convince the Turks that AG happened.

They “don’t know” that every single Turk in Turkey knows that it happened.

Meanwhile every intelligent creature knows that they don’t recognize it, because they are not willing to return the Armenian land and homes they, or their compatriots are living in.

But our FM and “State employees” can do it, I’m “sure”, if they would cry bitterly.

Turks, after several decades of discussions, will declare that the sub commission could not come to a unanimous conclusion on AG, therefore the Genocide claim is not proved.

It didn’t happen.

In this protocol Armenia made all the possible/impossible concessions that could be done. And Turkey made just one concession and agreed to listen while the Armenian “politicians” who would try to prove AG, by crying. But they didn’t pre-sign that their conclusion will be positive for the weepers.

Originally Posted by Haykakan
You forgot about the biggest reason why all this is being done like "the open borders" plus the affect this would have on the azeris.

Opening borders is profitable for Turkey, Russia, EU and USA, it isn’t a concession for Turkey. But for Armenia it is, because the borders have been closed only by the Turkish side.

Doing this Turkey, Russia, EU and USA, based on the “third countries territorial integrity” provision of the “Protocol”, and impending threat of closing borders again, will prevent the war between Armenia – Azerbaijan, with great chances of solving the Artsakh issue soon on Azerbaijan’s favor.

All this is done to ensure stability and peace in Caucasus region for smooth functioning of the gas and oil pipelines; just the Russia-Azerbaijan-Turkey-Greece pipeline will bring Turkey huge profits; 15% of the proceeds, as I read about it during Erdogan-Putin negotiations.

Thus the only looser in this deal is Armenia.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I meant antagonizing the republic with the diaspora. Anyway nobody questions Russia’s contribution to Armenia throughout the past century, and even before that. Imagine what it would have been if Russia had no presence in the Caucasus, Armenia would have been entirely under Turkish rule from Anatolia to the Caspian Sea. Let us say that throughout our history Russia has been the lesser of two evils.

Note that we do not know how things would have been if there was no Soviet Union, Armenia could have developed by itself and achieved what Soviet Armenia achieved and beyond.

Those days are over though, and the Republic of Armenia has to take matters into their own hands without necessarily being at odds with Russia. Opening up diplomatic and commercial relations with denialist Turkey is not a way to do it, whether it’s a pro-European one or not.



Although I and many others in the diaspora and even in Armenia question the advantages of the open borders especially under the conditions imposed by the protocols, I would not be surprised if Turkey closes the border after opening it for a while (it is good of you to have that reflex). Turkey is not trustable after all.



Well it would considerably reduce Russia’s influence in the area, an influence that is already endangered today.

By the way, why do you call Turks “Turcks”? I don’t know if it did it before, but this forum does not sensor that word.

You are making more logical deductions then most others here and it is good to see that. Although i was a lonely minority here right from the begining in supporting the opening of borders regardless of these conditions i feel that my explanation of my stance has gotten many people to look at the situation from a different angle. I have no illusions about what we can expect from Turky and i do fear they may shut the border but i think there are reasons why they wont do that. I can see why you may think russia would not want turckey to have excess to the region but i know of a reason it might. Imagine turckey becomes a eu member, and we already know russia controls gas and oil supplies to europe. Now picture a peace treaty being signed by armenia and the azeris(the details of which we wont get into for now). Now caspien oil and gas can be piped to europe and america can get its there to. This pipeline runs from the caspien and its surrounding states which own its various basins, through azerbadjian then through armenia then turckey... The benefits for the states involved are obvious but why would russia want this? Russia wants to maintain the firm grip it now possesses over pipelines leading to the west and it achieves exactly that by having the oil run through its ally Armenia which it can control easily. The west(including usa) want this because they need the gas and oil. Russia also wins big here by further isolating georgia thus making it completely irrelavent, this will mean the demise of shakasville and his repacement with a loyal russian puppet.The azeris win here because they gain a safe route for their oil and will most likely get a security zone or two just to save face in the kharabagh situation. Armenia wins big here by becoming the center of perhaps the most important trade route in the world and i am not just talking oil either. grand transportation projects such as railroads and highways linking asia to europe to the middleast will pass through Armenia and Armenia will keep kharabagh along with its armenian population and the corridor linking it to Armenia. This new reality will provide peace and prosperity for the region while allowing russia the control it wants and getting the west the supplies it needs.It is easy to understand how armenian diasporas voice gets lost in this equation. No matter how just our caus is, we are not powerful enough to take justice ourselves and it is in no one elses interest to do it for us. In my opinion it would be best to follow this plan because it makes armenia a wealthy and important player in the world which it would never achieve otherwise. I have to say i was one of those people who would go out and protest turckeys bid to the eu and everything else relating to the armenian agenda.Over the years i learned that politics is a game and that poltitions including the anca play it for the money. They will take your money so long as you are willing to give it but as you can clearly see you may as well thrown your money away because it did not get you what you spent it on. Dashnaktsutyun is a vocal party but it lacks planning and vision, it often puts the interests of the party ahead of the interests of Armenia and this i have a big problem with. I know many hardcore dashnaks who dont give a crap about armenia, they claim to be hairenasers yet never bother going to the hairenik while going to greece,cyprus,lebanan all right next door. The armenian diaspora is doomed to obscurity and irrelavence unless it establishes a connection to Armenia and i mean a personal connection which can only be created by interacting with it and its people. Save your money, dont spend it on polititions, use it to go to Hayastan and see what being a hay in hayastan is like for you. The more you go the more you will wanna stay there and who knows one day you just might.

[Army]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

If Turkish diplomats are not stupid, Ankara would not close the borders after an agreement. It would harm Turkey on international level.

[Davo88]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Russia is hardly anatagonizing the Armenian republic, it is russia that has protected and developed it for the last 90+ years. If armenian organizations outside the borders do not consider the "russian" factor then they will never achieve any meaningful goals, kind of like they have done for a long time now.

I meant antagonizing the republic with the diaspora. Anyway nobody questions Russia’s contribution to Armenia throughout the past century, and even before that. Imagine what it would have been if Russia had no presence in the Caucasus, Armenia would have been entirely under Turkish rule from Anatolia to the Caspian Sea. Let us say that throughout our history Russia has been the lesser of two evils.

Note that we do not know how things would have been if there was no Soviet Union, Armenia could have developed by itself and achieved what Soviet Armenia achieved and beyond.

Those days are over though, and the Republic of Armenia has to take matters into their own hands without necessarily being at odds with Russia. Opening up diplomatic and commercial relations with denialist Turkey is not a way to do it, whether it’s a pro-European one or not.

The open borders will be far more advatagous to Armenia then for Turckey, i actually worry about the turcks closing the border after opening it for a little while.

Although I and many others in the diaspora and even in Armenia question the advantages of the open borders especially under the conditions imposed by the protocols, I would not be surprised if Turkey closes the border after opening it for a while (it is good of you to have that reflex). Turkey is not trustable after all.

As for Turckey i it is hard to say if eu assention is in Russias interest or not but it would be in Armenias interest to have a eu country next door for both security and trade purposes.

Well it would considerably reduce Russia’s influence in the area, an influence that is already endangered today.

By the way, why do you call Turks “Turcks”? I don’t know if it did it before, but this forum does not sensor that word.

[Army]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Turks also do not think that they will join EU. But most of them see the 'path' onto EU will give enough power to the government against the deep state and other non-democratic powers. It seriously does as I can see. All those operations, court decisions and suits could not be happen if it is not for EU's and US's support. Those guys seem to be powerful. I can say the thing that called 'deep-state' was stronger than a small-sized state in arms, money, influence... Think about a ultra-nationalist and against-any-kind-of-religion 'mafia' within the state.